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Old 9 Jun 2000, 14:46 (Ref:16441)   #1
aiwa
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aiwa should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If you look at the entries for this championship in 1994 and 1995 the number of entries. There were 'semi works' teams from Scuderia Bavaria (BMW 1800tiSA) and Scuderia del Portello (Alfas in TC 15 and TC 3) plus huge numbers of private entries. Meaning that two races had to be provided at nearly all rounds - if I remeber correctly there was only one race in Sweden. Binnas may put me right.

Why were there so few entries at Zandvoort and hoping to get 30 entries for Donington seems poor. What has happened?? Do I detect from the comment from Florian Lacroix that scrutineers are having some impact??

Look at the entry list for the HTWT (www.HTWT.net.de) event in Germany on 17th and 18th June - a massive 74 car entry (two races). The cars are about in France, U.K., Germany and elsewhere so why do they not wish to compete against the FIA!!!
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Old 9 Jun 2000, 18:33 (Ref:16476)   #2
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The idea that scrutineers are causing the reduction in entries for the Historic Touring Car Championship or indeed any other championship is, in my opinion, a little silly. I remember those BMWs from the early days of the championship. They were a professional team and ran, as a works team should. The problem was that the majority of entrants were amateurs and as such there was a lot of complaint about that operation. Dieter Quester was one of the drivers. Scrutineers can only ensure that the cars meet the regulations, they don’t make the regulations. However if a car is outside the regulations then it must be made correct or excluded until it is corrected.

I think the main problem lies with the organisation rather than the way that the regulations are imposed. Florian posted the calendar earlier in the season but it had few rounds. Now they are going to Donington, which is an extra round. A stable calendar means that teams and drivers can plan.
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Old 10 Jun 2000, 10:03 (Ref:16558)   #3
Michael M
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May be it's a question of time and money. For an amateur it's very expensive to travel all around Europe, and the sometimes long distances mean an 2 additional days travel compared with national events. As (most) competitors have to earn their living by one way or another, this may be prohibitive.
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Old 13 Jun 2000, 10:46 (Ref:17009)   #4
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Peter I agree the fault does not lie with the scrutineer himself but in the way the scrutineering is carried out. Each race has its own appointed scrutineer whose reading of the rules differs.

The pre-race scrutineering is generally only safety oriented and the eligibility is only checked post race! I have first hand experience of the class winners being thrown out after an hour or two of measuring and searching, the win being then awarded to the car home who has not have to undergo this rigourous test.

Why not follow the example of so many successful championships and appoint a regular scrutineer who polices the championship to the benefit of all. The eligibility of the cars should be checked prior to the race or even during the close season while being prepared. Those found to have ineligible cars should not be allowed to start. This could be policed using the Historical vehicle identity form!

The problem lies in the uncertainty caused by eligibility. When a competitor knows the playing field is level and he or she is not going to have to spend anxious hours before or after a race awaiting a decision from an indivual whose interpretations on a cars eligibility differ from event to event. Then more competitors would be willing to invest the time and money required to compete throughout Europe.

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Old 13 Jun 2000, 13:14 (Ref:17022)   #5
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Originally posted by aiwa

The pre-race scrutineering is generally only safety oriented and the eligibility is only checked post race! I have first hand experience of the class winners being thrown out after an hour or two of measuring and searching, the win being then awarded to the car home who has not have to undergo this rigourous test.

Why not follow the example of so many successful championships and appoint a regular scrutineer who polices the championship to the benefit of all. The eligibility of the cars should be checked prior to the race or even during the close season while being prepared. Those found to have ineligible cars should not be allowed to start. This could be policed using the Historical vehicle identity form!
The Classic Saloon Car Club (GB) championships have an appointed scrutineer. We also use vehicle log books. However time constraints mean the scrutineering team is often stretched to cover the eligability of every vehicle. However the rule is generally that all cars are sent to parc ferme after practice, some are weighed (there is a weight limit for each class in some of our championships), some are tested for height and some are technically checked for obvious anomalies.

After the race the same checks are carried out to ensure no changes have occurred between practice and the race. You see, even if cars do comply before practice, they may not after the race. It sounds to me that you've probably got a good system. Its the people who cheat who slow the process up. If that is what is stopping/reducing entries then I suggest the championship gets rid of those who cheat.
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Old 14 Jun 2000, 12:07 (Ref:17189)   #6
Michael M
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Quote from aiwa's comment: "...spend anxious hours before or after a race awaiting a decision from an indivual whose interpretations on a cars eligibility differ from event to event".
I know the FIA Annex K, and in general it is quite clear, based on the main principle "everything which is not expressly allowed is prohibited". Any competitor spending "anxious hours" after a race knows that his/her car is either outside the rules, or extremely borderline, or in a kind of "grey area", so what? If a car is really illegal, disqualification is okay; if it is borderline by using all allowed tolerances, everybody should be aware of the risks (see F1); and if one is not sure whether a certain item is legal or not, check it beforehand with the technical officer of your national MSA or directly with FIA.
Scrutineers are independant, but not totally free in their decisions, they are not making the rules, they have to follow them. And if sporadically a scutineering official finds it necessary to create own rules, or to interprete them in his very own personal manner, there is always the possibility of appeal.
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Old 14 Jun 2000, 14:39 (Ref:17219)   #7
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I appreciate all the comments about cheats slowing down the process and that they should be thrown out. The cheats must not be allowed to start and that must be sorted out before they enter the race. However the culprit in the last FIA round in Zandvoort is a Mini racer with at least 10 years, to my knowledge, of competing in FIA rounds - why is his car suddenly running a track dimension that is too wide???

The FIA must be responsible for providing us, the competitor, with the tools and systems for us to enjoy our motorsport not only as safely as possible which they do achieve but with the least amount of beaurocracy which they do not achieve.

I am fairly sure that asking the FIA to legislate on whether a car is legal or not will either result in a very large bill for travelling expenses or a terse "follow the rules as laid out in Appendix K". As to going to an appeal, my budget stretches to a few races a year. When I have to employ a Lawyer, the fun for me goes out of the window.
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Old 14 Jun 2000, 16:40 (Ref:17236)   #8
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Aiwa, I'm very sorry, but 10 years competing and in the 11th year the track is too wide is no argument in my opinion. I'm lacking details of this special incident, but the questions must be:
- Is there a limitation of track width? Answer is yes.
- Has the track width influence on the competitiveness of a car? Answer is yes.
- During the check at Zandvoort, was it within the limits or not? Answer must be no, as otherwise there was no reason for disqualification.
- Has the track checked at earlier scrutineerings? If not, you cannot blame Zandvoort scrutineers for doing their job, while others apparently fail. And if the track has been found okay at earlier occasions, who guarantees that no changes had been made in the meantime?

In my opinion the FIA Appendix K is a suitable instrument, and without it there would be anarchy in historic racing. And in case of uncertainties, you have no travel expenses if you present your detailed question in written form to the MSA in charge (DMSB in your case). Mr. Fόrst at Frankfurt was always ready to assist, in case the regulations are not 100 % clear, or in case of special situations (e.g. can I use engine block "Y" as the original "X" is not available anymore), and if he is unable to make a statement, he will forward the question to the technical commission of the FIA. However, it is selfunderstanding that questions which are clearly defined by Appendix K will be returned.

And for presenting an appeal, you need no lawyer, and there is even no necessity to be personally present at the appeal session. And the appeal fee? Yes, a lot of money, but if the appealant is right, the fee will be refunded, so where's the problem?
And talking about fun, why are some of you going so close to the regulation limit - or even beyond -, only for having fun?
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Old 19 Jun 2000, 10:02 (Ref:17929)   #9
Florian Lacroix
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Florian Lacroix should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid

Hi guys,
sorry for the late (holidays)

I really think that the main problem is MONEY : if you want to be competitive you have to spend a lot of money (6 tyres every race, transportation, entry, parts, fuel,.....
With our small mini, we spend the same money as we were racing in modern cars.

Regulations have made people going out but the I think the main reason is money. If you race in national championship the cost is definetly lower but how fantastic is to race in Monza, Nurburging or Zolder
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Old 23 Jun 2000, 17:41 (Ref:18993)   #10
aiwa
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aiwa should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thanks for the frank exchange of views - there is a little bit of Colin Chapman in every person that wants to drive and / or prepre a racing car and that means running close to the border. Therefore the appointment of a series scrutineer means the border doesn't wander from one race to the next.
I will be out to watch the FIA Touring Cars at the Nuerburgring even if it does start very early on Saturday morning. Florian - as an ex mini racer myself I'll have to come and say hello.
Aiwa
P.S. The German Historic Touring Minis were doing mid 2:11's.
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Old 23 Jun 2000, 21:38 (Ref:19023)   #11
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Aiwa,

Don't hesitate to come and see us : I don't the timetable yet.

2:11 ????? Is it the lap time ?
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Old 24 Jun 2000, 10:56 (Ref:19124)   #12
aiwa
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Here is the presumed timetable for the Oldtimer. The Touring cars are on Sunday morning sorry - but still very early.

Yes 2:11 is the laptime.

Freitag, 04.08.2000

R 08:30 – 09:30 Uhr T 60 Min FIA Tourenwagen TC 1 – TC 15
R 09:40 – 10:10 Uhr T 30 Min Formel Junior
R 10:20 – 10:50 Uhr T 30 Min Formel 2
R 11:00 – 11:30 Uhr T 30 Min Rennsportwagen der 50er Jahre
R 11:40 – 12:10 Uhr T 30 Min Ex-Le Mans-Wagen
12:20 – 13:10 Uhr Pause
R 13:10 – 13:40 Uhr RO 30 Min Gruppe C / Gruppe 5 / IMSA
R 13:50 – 14:20 Uhr T 30 Min F 1 / 1960 - 1965
R 14:30 – 15:00 Uhr T 30 Min Int. SuperSports Cup
R 15:10 – 15:40 Uhr T 30 Min Rennsportwagen bis 1940
R 15:50 – 16:20 Uhr FT 30 Min FIA-Thoroughbred GP/F1
R 16:30 – 17:00 Uhr T 30 Min Hist. GP-Cars bis 1960



Samstag, 05.08.2000
Rennen Zeit Art Runden Serie
R 08:30 – 09:00 Uhr R1 10 Formel 2
R 09:10 – 09:40 Uhr R1 10 F 1 / 1960 - 1965
R 09:50 – 10:20 Uhr R1 10 Rennsportwagen bis 1940
R 10:30 – 11:00 Uhr RO 30 Min Gruppe C / Gruppe 5 / IMSA
R 11:10 – 11:40 Uhr T1 30 Min FIA-Thoroughbred GP/F1
R 11:50 – 12:20 Uhr R1 10 Ex-Le Mans-Wagen
12:30 – 13:50 Uhr 90 Min Pausenprogramm inkl. Chrysler-Parade (20+10),
Matadoren (20+10), Formel Vau (20+10)

R 14:00 – 14:40 Uhr R1 11 Rennsportwagen der 50er Jahre mit Le Mans-Start Vorfόhrung
R 14:50 – 15:20 Uhr R1 10 Int. SuperSports Cup
R 15:20 – 16:00 Uhr R1 10 Hist. GP-Cars bis 1960
R 16:10 – 16:40 Uhr T2 30 Min FIA-Thoroughbred GP/F1
R 16:50 – 17:20 Uhr R 30 Min Formel Junior
R 17:30 – 18:00 Uhr T 30 Min FIA GTS 1 – GTS 12, GTP/C10




Sonntag, 06.08.2000
Rennen Zeit Art Runden Serie
R 08:30 – 08:40 Uhr WU 10 Min FIA-Thoroughbred GP/F1
R 08:50 – 09:50 Uhr R 60 Min FIA Tourenwagen TC 1 – TC 15
R 10.00 – 10:30 Uhr R2 10 Formel 2
R 10:40 – 11:10 Uhr R2 10 Hist. GP-Cars bis 1960
R 11:20 – 11.50 Uhr R2 11 Int. SuperSports Cup
12:00 – 12:50 Uhr 50 Min Pausenprogramm inkl. Chrysler-Parade (20+5),
Matadoren (20+5) / Siegerehrungen

R 12:50 – 13:20 Uhr RO 30 Min Gruppe C / Gruppe 5 / IMSA
R 13:30 – 14.10 Uhr R2 10 Rennsportwagen bis 1940 mit Le Mans-Start Vorfόhrung
R 14:20 – 14:50 Uhr R 11 FIA Thoroughbred GP/F1
R 15:00 – 15:30 Uhr R 11 FIA GTS 1 – GTS 12, GTP/C10
R 15:40 – 16:10 Uhr R2 10 Rennsportwagen der 50er Jahre
R 16:20 – 16:50 Uhr R2 10 Ex-Le Mans-Wagen
R 17:00 – 17.30 Uhr R2 10 F 1 / 1960 - 1965
R 17:40 – 18:00 Uhr RO 20 Min Formel Vau

FT = Untimed Practice
T = Timed Practice
R = Race
D = Demonstration
WU = Warm Up
RO = Roll Out

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