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Old 15 Dec 2000, 04:55 (Ref:52561)   #1
Diabando
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Historic....

When does it happen? (dont worry - I am not having one of my blonde moments)

Just wondering if this differs from country to country... I suspect over Europe it would be quite uniform, as you can race at tracks in different countries which are just a drive away, and it would be the same for car shows etc...

After reading much of what is written here, it struck me that things are possibly quite different for those of us elsewhere.

(At this point, I am wondering if I am making any sense at all.....)

When does a car, series etc etc earn the term "historic"? Do you classify, for example, a touring car maybe 5 years old to be historic...or does it have to be at least 10? I KNOW this sounds like a silly question - but it is relevant...

I consider it ridiculous that my car is classified as "Vintage" when its only 27 years old...*grin*..In my case, it would be easy to see my car is "historic"..but what about something moderately late model? is there a line that gets drawn..and if so, what is it in your country? If you want to begin racing in historic classes - what is the measure?

Do tell...
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Old 15 Dec 2000, 07:41 (Ref:52569)   #2
Peter Mallett
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Welcome to our world Jen,

The term "Historic" is actually applied by the FIA. The actual cut-off point is subject to movement but generally anything that was built before 1966 can be considered Historic, for racing purposes.

Post Historic is applied to anything biult before 1974.

Vintage however is anything after 1907 and before 1939 (Tim help me out here). Before 1907 I believe its Edwardian.

Now if you want to consider later models you really get into a grey area. Classic is an apt term for these vehicles and it can be applied to models which have a following and which people want to restore. So we have the peculiarity of an Austin Allegro being considered a Classic Car?
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Old 15 Dec 2000, 08:46 (Ref:52572)   #3
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It rattled me the other day when I heard about the new class that caters for Peugeot 405Mi-16s and BMW M3s, but then I realised that 2-litre Touring Cars have changed somewhat in the last six years, and the ones that could be mistaken for a showroom car with a lick of paint are indeed history.

Peter, you're pretty much on the nail with the pre-war dating, except that there is a sweet little legacy of a similar debate to the one we have now.

When the Vintage Sports Car Club was being founded, they were looking for a cut-off date, and decided to place it at the end of 1930. After all, they couldn't very well have hordes of ten-year old Austins, Morrises and Ford 8s cluttering up the place. But by the same token, the cut-off date would exclude half the world's Bugattis, some seriously quick Aston Martins, the first SS Jaguars and so on.

So if you look at a VSCC programme even today, you'll find that the vintage cut-off is still the start of the thirties, but that there is special dispensation for "Post-Vintage Thoroughbreds", which are carefully listed and itemised, built between 1931 and 1939.
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Old 15 Dec 2000, 08:49 (Ref:52573)   #4
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Oh, and of course, anything between 1885 and 1918 is catered for by the Veteran Car Club. Although Brighton runners have to be officially proven to be pre-1905.
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Old 15 Dec 2000, 18:14 (Ref:52631)   #5
Craig
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I am led to believe the term, 'pre-historic' has been set aside by the FIA for exclusive use when referring to Peter Mallett.

Hope this helps
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Old 16 Dec 2000, 12:49 (Ref:52798)   #6
DAVID PATERSON
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DAVID PATERSON should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDAVID PATERSON should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDAVID PATERSON should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I believe there is some variation from country to country. In Australia, a veteran car is pre 1918. A vintage car is pre 1948 and a classic car is 1948-1960. This is for road cars and is somewhat arbitrary. CAMS sets the age limits for historic racing cars.

If you wish I could publish the cut-offs for all the Historic racing classes in Australia. In answer to your original question, thoroughbred racing and sports cars bulit no later than the mid'80s, with a genuine competition history are eligible for historic racing. Production Sports Cars are eligible for historic racing if they were built before 1975. Production Touring Cars are eligible for historic racing if they were built before 1973.
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Old 17 Dec 2000, 02:28 (Ref:52899)   #7
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Thanks everyone

Publish away David! If its too big to post here, you can e-mail it to me!

I find it fascinating that specialised insurance companies (for performance/modified vehicles only) have differing "age" methods....you would think they would get together with CAMS and develop a "standard".

Cheers!
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Old 17 Dec 2000, 10:35 (Ref:52953)   #8
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5th Category Historic Racing Groups in Australia

Group J - Racing & Sports Cars Pre 1930
Group K - Racing & Sports Cars 1930-1940
Group L - Racing & Sports Cars 1941-1960
Group M - Racing & Sports Cars 1961-1965
Group O - Racing & Sports Cars 1966-1969
Group P - Formula 5000 Racing Cars
Group Q - Racing & Sports Cars 1970-1977
Group R - Racing & Sports Cars 1978-1985
All of the above must be genuine vehicles with a racing history from the era.

All of the below may be built from ordinary road cars and do not need a competition history.
Group Na - Production Touring Cars Pre 1958
Group Nb - Production Touring Cars Pre 1965
Group Nc - Production Touring Cars 1965-1972
Group Sa - Production Sports Cars 1941-1960
Group Sb - Production Sports Cars 1961-1969
Group Sc - Production Sports Cars 1970-1974
































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