Three car teams - Good or bad idea?

[hamsmith]

I'm very much for three car teams for the following reason.

Right now there is only four teams capable of putting a driver on the podium which means eight cars in total, it doesn't take a genius to work out that three car teams means twelve cars able to compete for a podium position.
Many threads have been about how good a driver is and if you put him in a competitive car would be able to prove how talented he is, well why not have more opputunitys for these drivers who right now are racing in a class b championship. with another four cars at the top end i would like to see Webber,Klien and Bruni pushed up the grid a bit and see just what they could do with a championship challenging car.

What do you think? If you agree is it for simalar reasons? If you are opposed to three car teams please put forward your reasoning.

[006_007]

Argh, then the we would have had an all Ferrari podium in Australia and Bahrain!

[dretceterini]

I think a 3 car team would streach even Ferrari thin. I rather see 3 cars of slightly less, but very competitive quality than a cars on the track without a shot in hell.

It might also help sportscar racing if somone like Minardi left F1 nad went to prototypes.

[grumpy1]

It would introduce more talent into the mix but at what expense.Teams like Minardi and Jordan would leave F1 and I have my doubts about Jag.30 cars on the grid would be nice though and the race to run for 2hrs not x number of laps.

The Grumpy1

[hamsmith]

Does anyone have any thoughts on how the teams would go about increasing their budgets to allow for an extra car and driver? do you think there would be in increase of the rent-a-car drivers that we are seing more and more of each year but than again how would you raise the money needed to buy a seat at williams, the drivers struggle to pat for seats at Miardi

[Testure]

Three-cars would kill some teams - Minardi most likely, but perhaps also Jordan, Jaguar, maybe Sauber. Remember, Sauber can't even run a third car on Fridays from their budget. The extra costs of racing another car all weekend would be several millions of pounds each season. No, if F1 is forced to run three cars for whatever reason (another team dying, say), it'd be a tacit admission that the sport is collapsing. I'd stop watching.

[mp356a]

The more, the merrier.

[Poddy]

Originally posted by Testure
Three-cars would kill some teams - Minardi most likely, but perhaps also Jordan, Jaguar, maybe Sauber.

Yeah, agreed. If entries become a problem then the FIA should have a serious look at why the likes of Carlin, Supernova, Nordic and the like have been unable to step up over the last five-to-ten years when the likes of Sauber and Jorden were able to with no problems over a decade ago.

*deep, longing sigh* if only they could get back to the days when dropping a Mugen or a Hart engine into the back of a tidy chassis would be enough to net you 10-15 points a season.

[Schummy]

Three cars could a good thing if team orders don't exist (can they be policed and banned?), imagine a third Ferrari backing MS.

A better route IMO is to allow a team to sell cars to another teams. Two teams with another car are less likely to share "team" orders. Of course it would change the traditional spirit of F1, but maybe a crisis is approaching and then they will have to do something.

Also, put more differents circuits in F1. The more differents circuits are, the less sophisticated ans specialized the cars can be (i.e. rallies, CART, old F1,...). A "good old circuit" with "proper" bumps as any realistic road have would be the best anti-ultratech cars strategy.

If they go on racing on billar tables with Tilke-flat-non challenging circuits, they will go on designing laboratories machines as we have now. How many top level laboratories we can have?

My answer: yes, with conditions, to three cars, but why not more changes?

[Armco Bender]

3 McLarens......

[dangeradam]

Surely economies of scale would come into play, the teams roll up with three cars every weekend anyway and have enough bits minus a tub for a fourth i think its a reasonable idea, if you had drivers that helped each other it would be a good way to get data as well. The should leave the door open for those that want to have a go.

[esorniloc]

What is interesting is that the lower 6 teams can run a 3rd car on a Friday now (Sauber don't, but the other 5 do). So they have the drivers and cars at the circuits and use them at race weekends.

Having said that there is a limit to the number of cars which can start a GP (I think its 24). If ten teams each run 3 cars then there would be 6 drivers who didn't start a GP so Jordan and Minardi would probably DNQ.

[fiona]

Originally posted by 006_007
Argh, then the we would have had an all Ferrari podium in Australia and Bahrain!

i was all in favour of 3 cart teams but the thought of a all ferrari podium makes me say NO!!!!

[hamsmith]

Originally posted by Schummy

If they go on racing on billar tables with Tilke-flat-non challenging circuits, they will go on designing laboratories machines as we have now. How many top level laboratories we can have?

Bahrain was hardly a flat non challenging circuit. one of the first things i noticed was the gradient.

Argh, then the we would have had an all Ferrari podium in Australia and Bahrain

after the first three races last year did anyone think MS and Ferrari would win the championships? Right up to Austria i thought MS was in no way going to win it and it would be a two way fight between Kimi and Montoya.
Just like there was a Ferrari one two in Oz and Bahrain i'm sure we will see Williams one twos later in the year, that is if Ralf can remember he is not in a dodgem car.A race/podium dominated by a team in nothing new and pleases the team fans.

[BootsOntheSide]

If there were three car teams, most of the top teams would still hire the proven guys, whcih would make it hard for younger talent to ever get onto the grid.

It would be a morale-killer for the teams as well - assuming that reliabilitry remains as high as it is, the chance sof anyone below Ferrari, Williams, BAR and Renault scoring points owuld be minimal - why would anyone else bother turning up?

This would particularly be an issue regfarding the manufacturer-backed teams, who would vey quickly become frustrated and pull out. The cost of trying to run 3 cars would kill the privateers before long - we'd actually end up with a SMALLER grid, and more talented drivers sitting it out.

A driver can prove himself in the smaller teams - Webber, Raikkonen and Alonso all have in the last couple of years, and in fact much of the grid started out in teams with little or no manufacturer backing - including Michael and Rubens.

[garcon]

I voted "just the way things are", although really what I mean is that I'd prefer it if F1 could attract a few more teams - keep the two car teams, but give us grids of 24 or even 26 cars.

I'm unsure about three car teams for a couple of reasons. First, it may make tactical drving to the benefit of the team easier - a leader and two wing men is more effective than a leader and one, and what we want is more real racing not less. Also, if certain teams tend to dominate, then surely with three Ferraris, three Williams and three McLarens etc, it'll be harder for other teams to score points?

One option maybe a 3rd driver rule similar to that in WRC, in an attempt to give promising drivers a go in the 3rd car of the top teams. But I'm not happy with the whole concept of introducing any sort of handicapping measures into a series which is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport.

Maybe the answer is to encourage more 'sister' teams. A more formal relationship between Ferrari and Sauber, McLaren and Jordan, say. That may encourage/finance the additional teams to get the grid back up to 24/26 ... but of course that means there'd be a leader with three wingmen...

[sonic]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
If there were three car teams, most of the top teams would still hire the proven guys, whcih would make it hard for younger talent to ever get onto the grid.

An odd view boots - more seats = more chance of getting a drive!

If anything talent may actually count for more in this scenario - rather than the wad of cash you need to bring along to Jordan / Minardi / Jag these days.

3 car teams are the way forward!

who cares if Minardi and Jordan fall out of f1? Id rather watch more top cars capable of winning races battle it out than watch Slowgartner get lapped yet another time.

[KA]

Three car teams might increase the number of competitive cars in the short term, but long term it could have the opposite efect-

The only teams likely to be able to afford to run three cars and pay three drivers are those with manufacturer backing- and there's no guarantee of some of those sticking around for that long

The likes of Minardi or Jordan- or Williams for that matter, will be around for as long as they can pull a deal together to go racing- they have no other reason to exist.

The manufacturer-owned teams like Toyota, Renault or Jag are basically a product of the parent company's marketing strategy, and as soon as some guy in a suit at corporate HQ decides their marketing aim for F1 has been achieved, or that the money is better spent in WRC or sportscars or sponsoring the next Olympics, they'll be gone like a shot. I'd go as far as to predict that at least one of the three I've just mentioned will be out of F1 within 5 years.

Once the manufacturers start to walk away- and they will- even if you only look at the last 10-15 years as an example, pretty much the only manufacturer whose presence in F1 has been continuous is Ferrari, if the likes of Jordan Minardi or Sauber are gone grid sizes will collapse rapidly.

If we're going to have third cars, to me it's far better that they be made available for sale to other teams, as Schummy suggested a few posts back- it isn't even outside the 'spirit' of F1- the rule that teams must build their own cars only dates back to the around the late 70's. I'd much rather see Jordan or Minardi or a successful F3000 team being able to buy last year's Ferrari or Williams than manufacturer teams fielding three cars each

[KA]

Originally posted by Poddy
Yeah, agreed. If entries become a problem then the FIA should have a serious look at why the likes of Carlin, Supernova, Nordic and the like have been unable to step up over the last five-to-ten years when the likes of Sauber and Jorden were able to with no problems over a decade ago.
*deep, longing sigh* if only they could get back to the days when dropping a Mugen or a Hart engine into the back of a tidy chassis would be enough to net you 10-15 points a season.

You've hit on the fundamental problem with F1 at present- and everybody running third cars won't make a scrap of difference to the fact no matter how much success you have as a team owner in F3 or F3000, it isn't worth even thinking about entering F1 now unless you've got a relationship with a car manufacturer, or a company on a similar scale to pay for it.

If a young Frank Williams was starting out as a team owner now, he'd probably never reach F1, and that to me suggests something is seriously wrong with the state of the sport.

[hamsmith]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
It would be a morale-killer for the teams as well - assuming that reliabilitry remains as high as it is, the chance sof anyone below Ferrari, Williams, BAR and Renault scoring points owuld be minimal - why would anyone else bother turning up?

You.ve made some really good points but what i do not understand is the why would the turning up thing be any different from now? People are saying it now. Why do Jordan and Minardi bother?

[paulzinho]

I'd actually like to see some small teams be allowed to run just a single car like a few teams did in the past, bring back the privateers but for this to be cost effective costs would have to fall dramatically.

As for 3 car teams, to be honest at the moment I wouldn't want to see it happen, it wouldn't be a bad idea if more of the onus on driving the car was switched to the driver but I think the car has too much influence. Before anyone says anything I know the machine has always been the most important factor but I'd only like to see 3 car teams if I knew the driver was actually driving the cars.

Although I will say 3 car teams would make pitstops for wets very interesting if the was a sudden downpour!

[EERO]

Three-car teams are only an issue to when the number of entrants dips below twenty. There is a very real possibility that neither Jordan nor Minardi will see out the season and the prospect of 18 or-God forbid, 16- cars lining up on the Grid is not tasty.

The alternate possibility of a Ferrari 1-2-3 is even less appetizing. I remain concerned that the show is suffering and the very real need to up the entrants to 24 as it is mandated is not gioing to happen any time soon.

But better three car teams than 16 car grids.

[BootsOntheSide]

Great posts from KA there - you've basically written the response I was going to make to sonic for me.

As for the motivation point, Jordan and Minardi do at least know that they have the occaisonal day in the sun, such as Brazil and Indy last year, and Melbourne and Austria the year before.

The more important point is how it will affect Jaguar and Toyota, who are only in racing for the commercial reasons. What publicity kudos is there in finishing 14th, behind (for example) 3 Ferraris, 3 BMW-powered cars, 2 Renaults, 2 Mercedes-powered cars, and worst of all 3 Honda cars?

Some kinds of initiatives to get new teams involved are neccessary. Allowing teams to run older cars (if possible) or producing a semi-competitive off-the-shelf car form someone like Lola or G-Force, or even allowing F3000 cars modified with 4-Litre engines (more power but inferior handling etc), are all ideas to consider.

[Rennen]

In the time I've followed F1, teams like Ferrari have fielded up to 4 cars!...some teams could only run a single car against them.

Teams like B.A.R have proven they can run 3 cars on the Fridays, so why not let them RACE 3 cars!?...20 cars on the grid is a minimum number. More cars in the race can only add to the attraction of the sport in spectator terms.

As regards the 'minow' teams not finding drivers silly enough to pay to drive going out of F1...what would YOU rather watch?...20+ competitive cars or 14 with 6 'slow coaches' getting waved blue flags (blue dash lights now) getting in the way and having to drive onto the 'marbles' and then off the track? as we have now!

I say let us see 3 Ferraris, 3 McLarens, 3 Williams, 3 Renaults, 3 BARs and 3 Toyotas racing + the 2 fastest of the rest in qualifying please BE.

[Armco Bender]

You must be ancient like me too Rennen,in the '70s most teams did run 3 cars,McLaren even ran 2 teams,the Yardley Team and the Marlboro Team at the same time.Go back to the '50/60's 4 cars was the norm and with the quasi privateer entrants some teams were running about 6 cars.
The more cars on an F1 grid the better,why don't the teams run last years cars as a seperate team with a different entrant?Better than putting your old cars in a musuem.Then again McLaren are already probably dusting off last years model...