The F1 qualifying debate

[chillibowl]

so we are all agreed then...any time there is a lull in on track action, they should just send BE out in a frock to run around in traffic!

F1 fixed!

[Adam43]

How long before it is realised that last year's qualifying format wasn't OK and still has the inherent problem of people not going out due to saving tyres? Or people wanting to be knocked out in Q2 like Grosjean did the last race?

Or are they bringing more tyres like they suggested, or changing the rule about what tyres you start on if you're in Q1?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Adam43

How long before it is realised that last year's qualifying format wasn't OK...

im guessing about midway though quali in China.

say what you want about the failure of the knock out format but it got people watching and talking because it was something different.

the 2015 reintroduced format had largely become a very formulaic event. short of rain or something unexpected happening its not a very exciting part of the weekend and hasent been for quite some time imo because, as you say, its mainly about saving tires and thats not a very interesting thing to watch.

but then again how exciting does quali really need to be?

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Adam43

How long before it is realised that last year's qualifying format wasn't OK and still has the inherent problem of people not going out due to saving tyres? Or people wanting to be knocked out in Q2 like Grosjean did the last race?

Or are they bringing more tyres like they suggested, or changing the rule about what tyres you start on if you're in Q1?

Whether or not the old system had problems, it was still much much better than the new system.

Maybe someone has done a statistical analysis on this, but I don't remember many drivers streaking through the field and winning from 11th place on the grid, having been knocked out of Q2.

[Mike Harte]

We probably all suffer from having short term memories, and we certainly like to romanticise certain periods. But we tend to forget that throughout the years, there have been periods when certain competitors felt that there was no need to participate during large parts of the qualifying period.

Two examples of this would be Michael Schumacher and Damon Hill. They would both go out fairly early to put in "bankers", then go back to the garage, and just sit in their cars until they had to go out to take pole yet again. Michael would sit there staring at the monitor in front of him, whilst Damon would sit there with his eyes shut tight, seemingly in a trance, playing the track through his mind to mentally build the perfect lap.

Through the years, there have been plenty of others, and in fact at some past GPs, there were times when hardly any cars would go out in the first 30-40 minutes of the hour's qualifying. So, last year's session should have been better than many previous years, especially as the teams had an extra set of tyres allocated specifically to ensure participation in the last session.

[BSchneiderFan]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I'd favour everyone doing a single lap, in reverse championship order. Cars on the track at all times, media exposure for the smaller teams, and if you mess it up then too bad.

[Another Bob]

I don't mind the original 3 stage Q1, Q2 & Q3 qualifying.

The knock out addition to this in 2016 Oz and Bahrain races was rubbish.

The ironic part of F1 is we limit some of the most lest expensive part of the show. Tyre's and fuel.

I'm not advocating a tyre war or unlimited fuel, but.

Why not let teams have unlimited tyres over the full weekend, practice, qualifying and race. Pick any of the five compounds you want. On the day if you wish. So what if the single trye supplier brings 50 containers instead of 20? In the scheme of things as far as costs go, big deal.

That will keep them circulating on the circuit.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I'd favour everyone doing a single lap, in reverse championship order. Cars on the track at all times, media exposure for the smaller teams, and if you mess it up then too bad.

I am not really trying to be critical, but how would that work? If cars do their single prescribed hot lap in a specific order (reverse championship), that would imply coordination of when you run your lap. Do cars circulate in a specific order? If so, is everyone running at qualifying speeds to keep in order? What if someone gets out of order? Are you assigned a specific lap in which to be "your" hotlap? With 22 cars, does that imply a minimum of one outlap and 22 hot laps? With all cars on the circuit at the same time does that imply no coming into pit to change tires? So whoever is at the end of the queue circulates and preserves tires until it is their turn? Is there minimum lap times to keep those who are waiting from just crawling around the circuit? In short, I think requiring a prescribed qualifying order creates a LARGE number of unnecessary complexities. I do get that it would allow the focus to shift from one car to the next and give each car a moment in the spotlight.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I'd favour everyone doing a single lap, in reverse championship order. Cars on the track at all times, media exposure for the smaller teams, and if you mess it up then too bad.

Richard, I read that to mean that there would only be one car on a hot lap at a time, with the car before cooling down, and a car behind winding up ready to qualify.

However, that has been tried, and it wasn't popular with spectators or viewers, although the sponsors of the bottom end of the grid were in favour. One major problem for viewers was that there was a lack of relativity between the speeds of the cars and it was felt to be boring. The teams and drivers didn't like it because of the time management element. The next car scheduled to go out on it's warm up lap had to be waiting at the end of the pit lane by a specific time, and often the teams missed that deadline. A problem for them is that the cars do not like sitting stationary with their engines running, so the teams would send them out at the very last moment, which left no room for error. And sometimes the car didn't fire up instantly, or somebody crossed in front of the garage at the wrong second, and bang goes their opportunity to qualify. Which then meant that for one lap there would be no car circulating.

It wasn't good, and for the viewer, you were totally reliant on the commentator to tell you what was going on.

[Richard C]

After re-reading it and with your (Mike's) comment, I do think I misunderstood.

Richard

[chillibowl]

personally i did enjoy the single lap and even the two lap aggregate format so short of going back to the pre 2003 (or whenever they started tweaking) i wouldnt be averse to seeing it again. i thought it was a unique challenge and very unforgiving towards mistakes.

but if memory serves it was more the teams who did not like it because the top teams (and i can appreciate this) felt that the order made too big of a difference (as the track rubbers in) and there were some cases where the changing weather saw teams getting caught out.

this may be an odd or unrelated point, but as the fans, we seem to take a too much of the blame for these changes.

all these quali tweaks have been made under the pretense that we cannot deal with a few minutes of no track activity here and there (as if F1 fans cant deal with boredom! after all we watch F1) and while this certainly played out with the the knock out format i feel the massive outpouring of criticism has more to do with pent up feelings about how the sport operates in general as opposed to it being criticism solely aimed at a new quali format.

[wimiu012uk]

I think world superbike did a similar single lap qualifying format a few years back.
I seem to remember that as a bike was on its qualifying lap the next bike was at the end of pit lane and given the green light to leave as the fast bike was a set distance/time round.
With all cars circulating within 3/4 secs a lap difference it would not be hard to work out the correct timing for cars to leave garage, wait at pit lane exit and complete fast lap.
There would be no interference from other cars and if you mess up you mess up.

[Richard C]

I hate to even suggest ideas because a large part of me likes the purity of a single fast lap putting a driver on pole, but I also somehow gravitate to aggregate lap times as a way to spice things up. I think one aspect is to make qualifying exciting and to avoid cars in the garages. I know there is a focus on trying to jumble the race grid and I am not a fan of that. But back to the aggregate lap idea... What about if the lap aggregate requires the laps to be X amount of time apart?

So for example... (and this might have a fatal flaw but I am making this up as I type)... Keep three roughly 15 minute sessions. Your final position is based upon an aggregate of your best time from each session. Issues would need to be worked out around tire allocation and also maybe some tweaks to prevent a mad dash of laps at the end of each 15 minute session and nobody on track at the start of each session. Maybe the fear of red flags will get people on track early?

If you want to go full Bernie on this solution to shake things up, then randomly drop one of the times for each driver and then use the aggregate of the other two times. Or drop the best time of the three and use the aggregate of the 2nd and 3rd best times.

Would this move Mercedes out of the top spots? Probably not? It might keep more cars on track during qualifying? Regardless... Qualifying is not the problem and also shouldn't (IMHO) be used to try to fix real or perceived issues with race day.

Richard

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Whether or not the old system had problems, it was still much much better than the new system.

Maybe someone has done a statistical analysis on this, but I don't remember many drivers streaking through the field and winning from 11th place on the grid, having been knocked out of Q2.

Much, much better? My point is that it was only slightly better. It mainly just changed when the final bit happened and confused people who can't count. Daft I agree, but I am merely saying that it isn't really that different.

Obviously not many went through to the win from 11th as there were 10 faster cars out there! The point is 11th may be better than 10th, or as it is now 9th better than 8th as Grosjean said and then demonstrated (and 6th to 8th!). Giving an advantage to someone who achieved less in Q is daft, unfair, and smacks of a show not a sport.

The countdown cut offs were the same for all, so that could still be classed as sport. Even if it's daft.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Would this move Mercedes out of the top spots? Probably not? It might keep more cars on track during qualifying? Regardless... Qualifying is not the problem and also shouldn't (IMHO) be used to try to fix real or perceived issues with race day.

Richard

Why would you want to design a sport that stops the best team doing well? If you do it stops being a sport.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Why would you want to design a sport that stops the best team doing well? If you do it stops being a sport.

Based upon my post... We agree?

Richard

[Adam43]

Yes, it was a statement of agreement. As in I don't see the problem with Merc. being on pole if they've made the best car.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Yes, it was a statement of agreement. As in I don't see the problem with Merc. being on pole if they've made the best car.

I don't have a problem with Merc being on the pole because they have the best car, I do however have a problem with the fact that nobody else is allowed to improve their cars significantly to stop Merc being on pole though!


"It just doesn't make sense, and it is way beyond the point at which somebody with at least a modicum of common-sense re-wrote the rule book." Adam43

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

We probably all suffer from having short term memories, and we certainly like to romanticise certain periods. But we tend to forget that throughout the years, there have been periods when certain competitors felt that there was no need to participate during large parts of the qualifying period.

Two examples of this would be Michael Schumacher and Damon Hill. They would both go out fairly early to put in "bankers", then go back to the garage, and just sit in their cars until they had to go out to take pole yet again. Michael would sit there staring at the monitor in front of him, whilst Damon would sit there with his eyes shut tight, seemingly in a trance, playing the track through his mind to mentally build the perfect lap.

Through the years, there have been plenty of others, and in fact at some past GPs, there were times when hardly any cars would go out in the first 30-40 minutes of the hour's qualifying. So, last year's session should have been better than many previous years, especially as the teams had an extra set of tyres allocated specifically to ensure participation in the last session.

Throughout Formula One's modern history, drivers were unable to go out in qualifying as much as they liked. Tire usage was limited in various ways - including not allowing to use of no more than just two sets of qualifying tires, a regulation that was criticized for good reason by Gilles Villeneuve already in 1982 - and from 1993, drivers were not allowed to do more than twelve laps per session. This forced them to be very careful with their 'consumables'.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

I don't have a problem with Merc being on the pole because they have the best car, I do however have a problem with the fact that nobody else is allowed to improve their cars significantly to stop Merc being on pole though!


"It just doesn't make sense, and it is way beyond the point at which somebody with at least a modicum of common-sense re-wrote the rule book." Adam43

Thanks, you have mentioned this before. I was discussing the qualifying format and the principles behind that in line with the thread topic.

[Tourer]

The whole debacle of these 2016 Q changes was brought about to mix up the grid and offer a wider variety of winners, or at least make the dominant teams work harder for wins (according to what BE said when they scrapped the system).

That to me is arse about face - surely it would make more sense to address the wide variety of issues about the quality of the racing itself prior to playing too hard with qualifying? After all, teams have an entire GP to overcome any handicap imposed by a new Q system, so to me it makes more sense to work on what happens during the GP rather than what happens before the race.

I'm with others here in that F1 is a sport and therefore Q should be about the best performers in that session getting to the front as that has been an intrinsic part of the sport for a very long time.

My alternative proposal for format is as follows:
40 minutes free for all - all cars out on track when they want to be. For sure there'll be times when there are less cars on track but it creates a real sporting contest that it most cases should build to a crescendo through the session.
10 minute break - gives the various commentary teams time to analyse etc, teams to get sorted and so on.
Top 10 from the 40 minutes session go out for their own 10 minute session, which will set the first 10 places on the grid. Cars in that top 10 group must start the race on the tyres used to set their fastest lap in that top 10 session.
The way I see it, this keeps the process straightforward and understandable, everyone gets a fair crack, it should be good to watch and the best performers get a fair crack in a short session with limited cars on track to show what they can really do.

[Tourer]

!

[Matt]

Random reverse draw between 2 and 22.

[Adam43]

Sport not show.
Hands pole a huge advantage by probably taking the next faster car and moving it further behind.

How does random reverse differ from random forward?

[Richard C]

Motorcross style starts. Would require a rework of the tracks. First turn should be interesting!

Ok, for a more serious attempt...

Short (much shorter than Sunday) sprint race on Saturday instead of qualifying. Order set by championship points. Points awarded, but with a reduced points system (i.e. instead of 25 points for 1st, maybe 12 points, etc.) Then feature race on Sunday using reverse order of the Saturday finish. Full points (25 for 1st, etc.) for Sunday race.

A bit more fair than full reverse field, but would be expensive for the teams due to Saturday carnage. To keep someone from purposefully going slow in Saturday race to get pole for Sunday, exclude the last position from Saturday from the Sunday race.

Its a crazy idea, but that's what we do here.

Richard