Best F1 Driver Never to be Champion?

b1ackcr0w · 30 Jun 2006, 11:35 (Ref:1644819)

I've had this debate a few times with different people, and it's usually throws up some interesting opinions.

My vote goes to either JJ Lehto or Jean Alesi, and on balance Lehto just nicks it because I think he would have gone on to do a lot more in F1 if he hadn't have got injured, and his Le Mans win counts as a big plus also.

I'm open to counter argument and other nominations....

Raven · 30 Jun 2006, 11:38 (Ref:1644822)

Pedro Diniz without a doubt.

EERO · 30 Jun 2006, 11:51 (Ref:1644836)

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1ackcr0w

My vote goes to either JJ Lehto or Jean Alesi, and on balance Lehto just nicks it because I think he would have gone on to do a lot more in F1 if he hadn't have got injured, and his Le Mans win counts as a big plus also.

Lehto was extremely talented and never really had the opportunity to prove his worth. But on the basis of what he was able to accomplish, I don't see how you could even mention him in the same breath as:

Stirling Moss
Tony Brooks
Wolfgang von Trips
Ricardo Rodriguez
Pedro Rodriguez
Chris Amon
Jacky Ickx
Peter Revson
Stefan Bellof
Jo Siffert
Carlos Reutemann
Kimi Raikkonen
Mark Donahue
Mike Hailwood
Gilles Villeneuve
Ronnie Peterson

As for Alesi, a crowd favorite, clearly talented, but a squandered talent.

Draven · 30 Jun 2006, 11:53 (Ref:1644837)

Kimi, but Now that Diniz has been mentioned, I think I'll have to go with Tora Takagi.

There is a case to be made for half the grid from any season, what if they were better funded, wrong team at the wrong time etc.
Moss will come up, but of the recent crop I think Kimi gets it, I have a sinking feeling that he will probably retire with no WDC. Thats racing.

ECW Dan Selby · 30 Jun 2006, 12:03 (Ref:1644850)

Nah Kimi's still young. He'll get that title man.

Selby

rcarr · 30 Jun 2006, 12:18 (Ref:1644860)

Always thought Gerhard Berger was a very good racing driver!

EERO · 30 Jun 2006, 12:20 (Ref:1644861)

I dunno, Dan,

I think Draven is on to something. There is a bit of Peterson in Kimi.
He seems to be hard on cars.

And eventually the tabloid lifestyle will catch up with him.

It is a simple fact that to be dominant as a driver, one must have a single-minded obsessiveness about their career. One must be nearly monk-like, and that despite his profound talent and blinding speed is something Kimi is not.

In 1977, he would have been WDC, in 2007 and beyond, I'm doubtful.

BootsOntheSide · 30 Jun 2006, 14:25 (Ref:1644946)

Moss, Villeneuve and Peterson seem to be the most popular choices for this, so it's nice to see some different names put forward. Berger was demolished on pace by Senna, failing to even finish 2nd to him regularly in either 1990 or 1991 when Ayrton won the title. Likewise Alesi was only about equal with Berger throughout their time working together. Another name I'd like to put forward is Elio de Angelis - maybe not a frontrunner in this category, but people forget that he outperformed Mansell by a fair margin at Lotus.

karimbo · 30 Jun 2006, 14:39 (Ref:1644955)

Stefan Bellof, without a doubt.

kipper · 30 Jun 2006, 15:13 (Ref:1644965)

I'm inclined to say Stirling Moss as perhaps being the greatest driver never to have won a world championship. That said, I have a feeling that if cirumstances had been different Francois Cevert, Gilles Villeneuve and Gerhard Berger could have have been world champions. Perhaps Alesi could have made it to being world champion and the probability is that if he had gone to Williams in '91 he would have retired with multiple titles to his name.

Halsey · 30 Jun 2006, 15:33 (Ref:1644989)

Yep. For me, the first name that springs to mind is Moss, then Gilles.

Matski · 30 Jun 2006, 15:39 (Ref:1644997)

Hans-Joachim Stuck

strider · 30 Jun 2006, 16:12 (Ref:1645015)

I've borrowed EERO's list (with apologies for plagiarism) and added a few comments:

Stirling Moss - he's the one, no doubt in my mind.
Tony Brooks - always under-rated, but a supreme natural talent.
Wolfgang von Trips - would have been champion in '61 but for the Monza crash.
Ricardo Rodriguez - not sure about him. Very fast, but bit too wild?
Pedro Rodriguez - great sports car driver.
Chris Amon - the poor guy didn't even win a Grand Prix!
Jacky Ickx - came close in 1970, but Rindt and the Lotus 78 were supreme.
Peter Revson - don't know. Liked him, but WDC material?
Stefan Bellof - sadly, he never had time to show what he could have achieved.
Jo Siffert - in the same bracket as Pedro Rodriguez in my mind.
Carlos Reutemann - he'd be near the top of my list, but perhaps too moody?
Kimi Raikkonen - I'm still a believer. It will happen, maybe even next year.
Mark Donahue - no, see Pedro Rodriguez and Siffert.
Mike Hailwood - no, never as good in cars as he was on bikes.
Gilles Villeneuve - yes, definitely in my top three.
Ronnie Peterson - ditto.

maltafan · 30 Jun 2006, 16:24 (Ref:1645020)

Stirling tops my list followed by Alesi and Gilles V

brands · 30 Jun 2006, 16:31 (Ref:1645026)

Moss

Knowlesy · 30 Jun 2006, 16:35 (Ref:1645031)

I don't think Alesi ever had the temperament to win titles, although his raw talent was undeniable.

For me, it is probably Gilles Villeneuve and Stirling Moss.

**John Turner** · 30 Jun 2006, 16:54 (Ref:1645049)

We have indeed debated this often but it is good to see a few newer names thrown in. However, for me, it was, is, and probably always will be Moss. I agree also with those who have mentioned Brooks, Peterson and Gilles Villenueve.

A very thought provoking idea from Draven and EERO likening Kimi to Ronnie; a distinct possibility, I agree, although I've said before that I felt Kimi is quite possibly the most naturally talented driver since Jim Clark. It is also much harder for a driver to break a car now, so maybe Kimi will still make Champion at least once.

I don't agree with the suggestion of Stefan Beloff, quite simply because he was too fast for his own good. Sadly, it was surely only a matter of time before the inevitable happened. I don't think he was ever going to allow himself the time to mature enough to know when to slow down, and that's one of the attributes required to become a World Champion. He was a brief, but very bright, shooting star.

ralf fan · 30 Jun 2006, 16:55 (Ref:1645050)

Gilles Villeneuve IMO... I havent seen any footage on some of the older guys so i cant comment.

I think Alesi would not be champion even if they were given the right car.

I think even if ALesi went to Williams hed have had more wins no doubt but i doubt hed have won the championship.

As for Kimi, there is still time and i think he will be champion one day

baclightning · 30 Jun 2006, 17:55 (Ref:1645108)

Stirling Moss in a walkaway. In fact, Moss is the only non-champion F1 driver who is in the argument for the title of best-ever F1 driver, period. Not that I'd personally vote for him, but he's in the argument...

BootsOntheSide · 30 Jun 2006, 20:31 (Ref:1645221)

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Turner

t is also much harder for a driver to break a car now

Considering JPM's pre-2005 reputation as a car-breaker, and the team's support of Kimi after his shoulder injury, the number of failures Kimi had compared to JPM calls this into doubt, although in general I agree due to rev-limiters.

It could have been Alesi and Patrese in the 1992 Williams, and (assuming its pace wasn't down to Mansell's hard work in developing the Active Suspension and semi-automatic gearbox) I'd expect Jean to come out on top in that battle.

Racer Scott · 30 Jun 2006, 22:37 (Ref:1645348)

Stirling Moss is arguably the greatest driver of all time - indeed Nigel Roebuck uses him as the example of "does the Championship really matter".

I'd say he's the best non-champ by a distance.

Davhut · 30 Jun 2006, 23:44 (Ref:1645403)

In this order for me:
Moss
Villeneuve
Regazzoni
Reutemann
Brooks.

IMO can't list drivers who didn't feature in the standings nor any who didn't win a race.

Bellof · 1 Jul 2006, 00:31 (Ref:1645416)

stefan bellof for me as well ;-)
and for kimi, he'll get his title, no sweat...

Robin_D · 1 Jul 2006, 00:45 (Ref:1645417)

Von Trips probably. But he didnt have the chance.

I refuse to say Stirling Moss, he was a good driver but I found him to be extremely arrogant and pompous. Hence why I dont rate him.

rcarr · 1 Jul 2006, 00:46 (Ref:1645419)

Ive never rated Alesi as one of the top drivers of the past 10-15 years!

Stirling Moss was unlucky to win a title but look at the oppostion he faced at that time!

Stefan Bellof, definately! Anyone who could clinch the Nordschleife lap record should become a saint let alone WDC!

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