Brabham BT 5

[petestenning]

I never even knew a Brabham BT5 had been made so seeing this one at the Snetterton Autosport 3 Hours was a supprise .

Can anyone tell me about this car and it history, how many were built , where and where were they raced etc.







Copyright Peter Stenning

[petestenning]

According to this site there were 2 built in 1963 and raced by Ian Walker for Frank Gardner and Paul Hawkins.

The rear bodywork is diffrent from that on the Snetterton car and was fitted with Cosworth Twin-Cam and a Hewland MK5 in 1963

This was the for runner for the better known BT8 which used either 2.0, 2,5 or 2,7


http://www.nvo.com/brabhams/pictures...ures&UID=10045

If you move forward there are 2 more pictures of a BT5.


Pete

[John Turner]

Pete, this is History, so I'm moving it there!

(Edit note - and later still to the Chassis Archive - JT)

[petestenning]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Pete, this is History, so I'm moving it there!

Thanks John ,was not whether to post it here first .


Pete

[CanAmBob]

Originally Posted by petestenning

I never even knew a Brabham BT5 had been made so seeing this one at the Snetterton Autosport 3 Hours was a supprise .

Can anyone tell me about this car and it history, how many were built , where and where were they raced etc.







Copyright Peter Stenning

Peter

The Brabham BT5 in your photo is now owned by John Delane. I purchased and restored this BT5 serial number SC-1-63 and did a lot of research on the BT5 history. SC-1-63 is the only Brabham BT5 raced for Ian Walker. It was driven by Frank Gardner and was very successful. Frank Gardner helped develop the BT5 and describes the development in a recent Motorsports article. Peter Sachs purchased the BT5 from Ian Walker and ran it in SCCA in the USA. Peter set a track record at Lime Rock in the car and was the SCCA eastern Division Champion in 1964 with this BT5. Peter Sachs sold the car to a dealer that sold it to Ron Hunter. Ron campaigned it for two years and parked the car in 1967. The car was a true barn find and still has its original chassis. Here is a link describing some of the history when I owned the BT5
http://www.hmsausa.com/car/bt5/bt5_2.html

Here is another site with additional history

http://www.oldracingcars.com/Projects/Brabham-BT8.htm

SC-1-63 won on its class on its first outing at Snertterton in 1963 with Frank Gardner. This little Brabham was a better handling car than the Lotus 23 in 1963 and John is proving it is very competitive today.

The second BT5 SC-2-63 was made later in the year and sold to Ed Zeller.

CanAmBob

[petestenning]

Thank you for that info, John Delane and Andrew Wills drove the car at the Autosport 3 hours where my picture was taken and it looked and drove well against the more more powerful B6/B8 'S, Elva's and the Hales/Shipman Crossle.

Thankfully we here have several US historic racers who visit with thier cars and take part at the historic meets.


Pete

[rogerwills]

It was interesting seeing this car at Snetterton recently. John is not a big man but he sits very low in the car. Quite a contrast to my Elva, 23Bs etc.

[Ted Walker]

John was sitting extra low in the BT5 because he drove his stint with a broken seat and was "hanging on for dear life"

[Denis Lupton]

Brian Wilson has SC-2-63 alive and well in Australia,racing regularly at Historic events.I'll try to send photos.

[Andrew Fellowes]

photos copyright Denis Lupton

[petestenning]

Thanks for the photos, just shows what a shapely car it is for that era it looks prettier than a Lotus 23, a much smoother roundness to it.


Pete

[Andrew Fellowes]

one more taken at Speed on Tweed a couple of years ago;



only two?....sure? .........

[CanAmBob]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

one more taken at Speed on Tweed a couple of years ago;



only two?....sure? .........

I am sure there were only two made if that is the question. There was a great article in the September 1963 Australian magazine Modern Motor that went into detail about the history of the SC-1-63 and at the end mentioned a second car being built SC-2-63 and the partially done chassis was shown in the article. The article was written after the SC-1-63 had a great run at the Rheims 12 hour race on June 30 (running as high as second until retiring do to overheating). Brabham started on the BT-8 later in the year.

Bob

[Denis Lupton]

The BT5 was a particularly interesting Brabham,in as much as there never seemed to be much information available on these cars. Talking to Frank Gardner many years ago, he thought there were 3 cars built,and with that in the back of my mind, I have done some research on the cars.
Very helpful was a letter I received from George Thornton,
again ,many years ago.
SC-1-63 ---delivered April 1963 to Ian Walker, for
F.Gardner, P. Hawkins and G.Hill.
For Sale A/S Sept 20 1963
To Peter Sachs USA
Ron Hunter
Buzz Dyer
Bob Lee
John Delane

SC-2-63--- Delivered April 17 1963 to Ed Zoeller
(Swiss American)
1964 to John Randell (USA)
1971 Al Allison
1985 Ray Cooke
1988 Bill Chizar
Brian Wilson (Aust)

This ad was in A/S May 1 1964 p 629
Brabham Sports Car 1963 3 races, 1 crash, completely rebuilt by Jack Brabham with latest mods, better than new-
ex-factory,no purchase tax, 1950 pounds,many spares at 50% of cost, contact D. Mills , Brabham Racing Developments, Byfleet Rd,New Haw, Weybridge, Surrey, Tel. Weybridge 46626

Maybe SC-3-63????

Hope this attracts some additional information to the history of the BT5.
Denis

[Denis Lupton]

SC-1-63 Delivered MARCH 1963, must learn to proof read my post's properly,
apologies
Denis

[allenbrown]

Denis, isn't that ad for the Zoeller car, repaired at MRD and then sold to Randell?

Allen

[Denis Lupton]

Allen
I've been told that Zoeller sold his car to Randell in the USA, not in UK, lots of reasons one way or t'other, but no facts, so I guess you just keep an open mind.
Denis

[CanAmBob]

Originally Posted by Denis Lupton

Allen
I've been told that Zoeller sold his car to Randell in the USA, not in UK, lots of reasons one way or t'other, but no facts, so I guess you just keep an open mind.
Denis

Denis I agree with Allen the A/S ad is for the second car. Ads sometimes run past the sale date. If there was a third car it would have been mentioned in the September 1963 article of Modern Motor. When I took the BT-5 to Goodwood in 2001 a couple of people were going crazy taking photos of everything on the car. I overheard a discussion with one of my crew that the guys taking photos were trying to say they had a BT 5 nose and were thinking about building a car around the nose. It is this type of behavior that really kills the market and frankly irks the hell out me and others with real cars. There were only two BT-5's. That is the reason I purchased the car from Buzz as there were only two versus the huge number of Lotus 23's originally built plus the replicas. I believe the second car was rebuilt at the factory at some point and have specific reasons to say this. I will keep them to myself in case the replica crowd continues on their path. Please excuse the rant.

Bob

[CanAmBob]

Denis the delivery date for the second BT-5 must be incorrect it could not have been delivered until after June per the article in Modern Motor. The first race for Ed Zeller was at the end of August. His last race was in 1964 at Monza where he crashed the car.

[allenbrown]

I would trust that date as it would come from George Thornton's records (unless it's been mis-copied somewhere along the way and should say 17 Aug). However, it may have been delivered as a rolling chassis and it's possible that Zeller took a while to get it up and running.

Like Bob, I would be very disappointed if someone tried to create a third BT5. I think I'd better get a BT5 page up on ORC and make sure the story of both cars is clearly told.

Allen

[Denis Lupton]

Allen
I'd be the last person to be involved in the " manufacture" of a spurious
BT5. It's just that over the years I've been interested in all things
Brabham, and sometimes there seem's to be more than meets the eye on
certain car's. In the late '70,s , early '80,s ,I tracked down 2 BT5's,
one owned by Ron Hunter,who had by then passed away, and I negotiated
with his parent's , Mildred and Buell Hunter , and then through their solicitor,
but found it difficult,being many thousands of miles away, to make the decision to fly to America to try to finalise a purchase.Later, also spoke to Buzz Dyer,who sent me some photo's, but again, no result.
I then spoke to Mr Ray Cooke,who also had a BT5,and who also sent photo's, but at the time he was'nt sure if he wanted to sell or not, and I never heard from him again.
I had also spoken to David McKay, a well known racing driver in Australia and a journalist who wrote for Modern Motor magazine, and who was very knowledgable on the Brabham marque, and he also thought there was a 3rd BT5 sportscar. ( By the way, I have the article Bob Lee has mentioned, also several bound volumes of Modern Motor, which includes many Brabham articles written by David McKay)
It just seems strange that two well informed people with entry into the inner sanctum of MRD, would be of the same opinion about the number of BT5's.
To use a cliche, "pity the poor historian".
Denis

[allenbrown]

If a third BT5 existed in period then that would be a great discovery. I wouldn't rule that out as a possibility but I would be surprised.

However, if someone wants to built one now - for fun - that needs to be documented so that a less scrupulous person in the future can't buy it and try to pass it off as real.

[Denis Lupton]

The ad's for the BT5 (1963 Brabham sports car) in Autosport appeared
April 17, 24, and May 1, 8, and 15.
Autosport being a weekly, and MRD money conscious, I reckon the Ad. would have been pulled as soon as money changed hands on the deal.This at least gives us an accurate date for delivery date for the new owner.
Denis

[Andrew Fellowes]

Autosport used to give a discount for 3 ads, payment in advance.

Andrew

[pantah]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

If a third BT5 existed in period then that would be a great discovery. I wouldn't rule that out as a possibility but I would be surprised.

However, if someone wants to built one now - for fun - that needs to be documented so that a less scrupulous person in the future can't buy it and try to pass it off as real.

Has anyone got a decent photo of a BT5 chassis - and of a BT8 chassis for comparison purposes?