Silverstone Classic 2009. Are some races in this event NOT licensed by the MSA?

[eclectic]

Today, I received an Entry form for the four races, Pre 1963 GT Cars, 'Decade of Thunder' (my choice!), Lawrence Bloom Mini race and the David Leslie fo 90s Super Touring Cars, all being organised by Goose Communications for this event.

The entry form came with no SRs and asks me to sign that I have read them!

No MSA Permit number for the event on the entry form!

A phone call to the MSA informed me that the company that owns Goose Communications, (they took over from others who went bust), is going through the process of being licensed at present, but has no license as of today!

Entry fees vary from £150 to £700, for races for which no permit can be issued as the organisers are as yet unlicensed.

Entries close on 15th May, the page on the website http://www.silverstoneclassic.com/regulations.php just says, Regulations, 'Coming soon'.

Well, as they are as yet unlicensed, they cannot be breaking MSA rules.......... but, quoting their entry form, "I have read the General Regulations of the Motor Sports Association and the Supplementary Regulations for this event............"

I am supposed to sign this and send money?

I would be very concerned if I had sent £700 for my entry already.

Phone calls to Goose Communications get diverted to an answering machine, when someone from Goose phoned me yesterday to canvass my entry, I assumed it was in reply to an email to the same man, but no, it was fortuitous, he had been given my number by someone who knew my email had gone straight into his spam folder as I was not on his list of authorised users!

I am trying very hard not to be libellous here, but if the moderators are concerned, perhaps they had better delete this.

[Al Weyman]

Well having got ripped off last year for £3400 by a company claiming they had something to sell and when it boiled down to it they had sod all but took my money all the same then promptly told me they had ceased trading and are now waiting for someone to close them down and save them the expense of even doing that then I would be very, very wary as trust me on this the law won't help and neither in many cases will the credit card companies anymore dispite what they may have done in the past. Be careful out there.

[John Turner]

Mike, your post seems mainly to be stating fact, but I have edited out a little bit, that whilst not in my view libellous, might be regarded as contentious. It would be surprising, I think, if the MSA didn't issue a permit number for this event/these races. Anyone out there, directly involved, care to comment?

[simon drabble]

I am not sure I understand the rant... the individuals behind the meeting are very well known in the racing world and given most races are now over subscribed you are clearly in the minority with your concerns..... you are free to take the academic high ground and wait for licences before parting with your money but realize that you will be a spectator only!!!

[John Turner]

Steady, Simon; I think it's a post expressing concern rather than a rant. After, the 'Donington Affair', I suspect there is a heightened awareness of such issues, even though this is clearly a different situation, altogether. However, as you say, if Mike delays, he will miss the boat.

[eclectic]

Simon, they may well be well known, but as of today, they are asking every entrant to sign that they have read a document that hasn't been published.

If a car crashed and a marshal or spectator was killed or injured, a good lawyer could make mincemeat of the driver. Liable because he fraudulently signed his entry form, and Goose would be absolved from their liabilities and responsibility.

I'm more than happy to race my Brasier in the Edwardian race, (though I gather there has been very little uptake), but not unless it is in an MSA licensed event.

At present, with 8 days to go before the closing of entries, the four races offered by Goose are not.

"Academic high ground"? No, just think how heavily the MSA would come down on me if I applied for my racing license and said that I had a road license from the DVLA, when I had only applied for one?

This situation is identical, Goose is selling grid places when they have only applied for the license to apply for a license to run this event. Furthermore, with no published SRs.

Worrying and dangerous, as every entrant has exposed himself to liability if there was an accident. I am not at all sure that the post hoc granting of licenses and publishing of SRs would, by the "Blue Book" legitimise his entry.

[simon drabble]

I take on board what you are saying but given this meeting has the backing (and support) of BRDC and given the people involved RAC I would suggest it is highly unlikely that it will not sort itself out.

I would also wager that Eclectic also believes this in which case the post was mischevious. Donington was a rather flakey pipe dream that no body other than Bernie and his mate Tom supported purely to upset and wind up BRDC.

To make it interesting as I have paid my entry fee Eclectic I bet you a bottle of Bollinger that the event takes place with all the legal requirements in place..... I actually dont drink but it would be my pleasure to take it to Delta's barbecue!

[John Turner]

Simon, I'm maintaining a balanced even-handed approach in keeping with my role!

I did say the two were different, but I don't think Mike was being mischievous, simply spotted something others hadn't. Anyway, I would not take your bet, but I might pinch the Bollinger from under both your noses if I'm around.

[Peter Mallett]

Simon,

I'm not certain but you aren't entered in any of the races Mike mentions are you? It appears to me that the races in question are those in (shall we say) the special categaory, such as the Super Touring Cars.

[simon drabble]

yes - the pre 63GT.... but they are also the organizers of the whole meeting so if the races didn't happen nor would the meeting.
Both will take place

[eclectic]

I am NOT being mischevious, putting the paperwork right after asking people to sign a document they havn't read because it has not been published by the organisers, does not sort out the problem that both the organisers and the entrants have acted recklessly and apparently, illegally.

Racing is only legal in this country through powers delegated to the MSA from Parliament.

At the moment, Goose appears to be acting illegally as the official if the MSA that I spoke to yesterday, told me that they are not licensed.

I would like to see the SRs as they have not declared, formally, which circuit we are using, how long the race is, etc.

I don't care how well known the organisers are, I wouldn't do business with Spanky and his pals in F1 without formal legal paperwork either.

The MSA has to act within the law and their delegated powers.

If this meeting goes ahead, at the least, there should be an MSA enquiry as to how the organisers were permitted to take money from MSA licensed drivers, while unlicensed themselves and quoting MSA regs in their entry form, thus implying that they as organisers were licensed by the MSA to run this event.

Furthermore with no published SRs.

If the organisers went bust after the event, with outstanding claims for damages caused in an accident, the unfortunate driver could find himself liable for damages running to millions.

The reason for the existence of the MSA is to provide a legal framework for racing with the liabilities of all parties properly covered.

As of this moment, these races do not fall into the remit of the MSA.

Event putting paperwork in place 'post ipso facto' would be of little help in a court of law, lawyers will always follow the money, so if, after the meeting, Goose was sued, went out of business, no money left, and the entries have been accepted without MSA sanction, the driver responsible for an accident could find themselves 'hung out to dry'.

This is serious, NOT a wind up.

[simon drabble]

so would you like to take up my bet of a bottle of Bolly?

[eclectic]

Simon, I have no doubt that the meeting is likely to go ahead, too much money at risk.......

However that does not change the fact that at present the entry money for the four grids organised by Goose is being accepted outside the legal framework for motor racing in this country, so the formal, legal protection offered by the MSA is not in place, and may well cause the driver to suffer legal liabilities if anything went wrong on the track.

The loss of entry money, if the races were not held, would be a minor irritation in comparison.

Anyway, Bolly is no use to me either, I don't drink!

[Ken Prichard Jones]

Gentlemen, I am slightly surprised that Mike did not phone me to voice his concerns about the Silverstone Classic 2009 since we are both Edwardian racers, have competed against each other and even had dinner together in the past. The racetrack organising entity for SC09 is the HSCC which has entered into an agreement with Racing at Silverstone Limited to run all the races. The whole event is MSA licensed. The regulations for the races which are not being promoted by HGPCA, FJ, Masters, MRL, Mini7 and Mini MIglia are in the final stages of being drafted. We wanted to consult several intending entrants for these races at the Media Day yesterday before completing them. We are trying to keep them very simple. For example, we are trying to keep the special regulations for the Mini Libre class in the Mini races to "cars must either look like a Mini or have Mini running gear which may be modified as much as the entrant wishes". We were discussing with the HSCC yesterday whether the MSA would allow an entry for a jet-powered Mini pick-up whose owner is keen to enter it. All grids, except the Edwardian grid, are oversubscribed and we will have the difficult task of choosing which cars to accept. We are hoping the owners of Edwardian cars will enter their cars, even if those owners no longer hold race licences, because we have a list of famous drivers who are keen to drive an Edwardian. The reaction to the presence of Edwardian cars on the track yesterday shows that they will become a much-appreciated part of the Silverstone Classic. I drove the full GP circuit in an Edwardian for the first time yesterday and it is a superb circuit for these cars. If anyone has any questions or concerns about SC09, please contact me directly and I will do my best to reolve any problems.

On another topic, the NMM Lotus 49 which I was due to drive later yesterday afternoon, changed down rather than up (it is the difficult ZF gearbox which was replaced by the Hewland box the next year because it always caused problems on this car) because the linkage is hazy to say the least. This caused the slide which ended in the pit-lane wall. Thankfully, Doug Hill was not harmed at all. There was raltively little damage and all parts to replace the bent front and rear suspension are in stock. Best regards, Ken Prichard Jones

[eclectic]

Ken,

I had no idea that you were organising this event, there is not much information on the website.

I must add, that I am not trying to be libellous or contentious on this issue. You yourself are a lawyer, and I have no desire to be sued.

However, I am very concerned that entrants to this event have been asked to sign an entry form for an event not currently licensed by the MSA and to sign that they have read the SRs which do not appear to have been published.

I will be delighted to bring my Brasier if the Edwardian race goes ahead, even if they are just 'demonstration laps at representitive speeds' and if I am still welcome.

The Carlos Santana concert would be a major draw from my point of view, but who are the Pussycat Dolls? There, that should at least show what an old fogey I am!

Moderators, please edit or delete, if you feel that I have exposed Ten Tenths or myself.

[Ken Prichard Jones]

Mike,
No problems. You will always be welcome to race your Brasier whose dust I remember eating several times! The Edwardian race will be a proper race unless the MSA steps in and asks for a reduction in the race programme for any reason. The moderators need do nothing as no offence has been taken. The entry forms are only conditional upon acceptance by the organisers and you will be supplied with a copy of the specific regulations before your entry is provisionally accepted by us and then finally confirmed by you. We are hoping to keep the Edwardian regulations as simple as possible as well. Best regards Ken

[eclectic]

Ken,

That is very reassuring.

I hope you get it all sorted out soon.

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by eclectic

who are the Pussycat Dolls?

One of them is Lewis Hamilton's girlfriend. And they're not very good.

I hope all goes well with this event-I've spectated for the last 5 years and am marshalling for the first time this year on Friday and Saturday then being joined by my family to spectate on Sunday. It's always been the highlight of the year so fingers crossed it goes from strength to strength.

[Fay]

Looking at some of the cars out at the launch yesterday it should be a great event.

I am afraid the only bad point is that I will be Chief Marshal and Alan will be Chief Flag as is normal at the HSCC meetings at Silverstone!!

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

One of them is Lewis Hamilton's girlfriend. And they're not very good.

the alternative entertainment is a group therapy session of Rivet Counters Ananymous organized by the "other place" - entry barred to all who post in their real name!!

I have to say optically I would have preferred the Saturdays but if my son is correct the PCD are old enough to classify as "Classic"!

I know the other place has criticised having concerts but I think its great and it has encouraged me to stay on site all weekend - something I would never normally do - and if others do the same it must be good for the stall holders...

The Classic has not fallen into the easy trap of becoming a pastiche of Goodwood - it is forging its own branding and I think that should help ensure its longevity...

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I know the other place has criticised having concerts but I think its great and it has encouraged me to stay on site all weekend - something I would never normally do - and if others do the same it must be good for the stall holders...

Rockingham used to combine racing and concerts a few years ago and they were very successful-certainly introduced racing to people who wouldn't have normally bothered. Not sure about the Pussycat Dolls though-surely someone a bit more 'classic' would have been a better choice? Might encourage some youngsters to come along though.

[terence]

Like the Floyyd?

[simon drabble]

or better still Band du Lac given they are all petrol heads!

[terence]

I'll go along with that choice Simon. Dont suppose Nick would be too keen on a re-union anyway.

[Ken Prichard Jones]

We chose the PCDs because of the Motor Sport connection and because we wanted to reach out to a younger audience. Blue have now announced that their first major reunion concert will take place at the SC09 on Friday as support for the PCDs. Simon Webb of Blue will try to obtain a race licence for the event and race there. Several famous guitarists have now asked to jam on stage with Santana and we are awaiting his comments. The prospect of playing at a motor racing meeting seems to appeal to bands and we are receiving a lot of enquiries now for next year. There will also be free concerts at the new Race Cafe during the event.