Birrana

[grice80]

In Aus it is a lot harder to get a historic log book and certificate of desription (cod)for a genuine vehical.There must be a clear and proven line of history,and cast off components or a "tub" do not automatically constitute a vehical.

[bazza_d]

If anyone is interested I currently own this car, I have the logbook sitting in front of me, so if anyone wants any information regarding this car please contact me.

[allenbrown]

Hello

Yes, I'd be very interested in getting this car straightened out. Could you give us a list of owners from the logbook? Email me on allen-at-oldracingcars-dot-com if you prefer.

Thanks

Allen

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

I (Rowan Harman) purchased 273-008 from Rick Purvis. I was going to build a Renault 5 Turbo Sports Sedan out of it but CAMS wouldn't let me (even though they allowed Bob Watson and another guy (Ron Marks?) to rally one???). I sold it to Bruce Mactier. I beleive it was then sold to Ross Zampatti as a birthday present for Bernie and was to be refitted with its (his) 2 Litre Waggott. From memory, Brock was the second owner of the car, it was originally ordered by Paul England for Tony Stewart (maybe one meeting) before Brock got hold of it.

I also purchased the 273-010 and the damaged 016 Car (Baker) from Chas Talbot. The 016 was returned to Australia to recoup "NZ Duty". The 010 Crawford car later went to Steve Lunn. The 016, in component form, (damaged in NZ) was sold to Russell Spokes.

Good to catch up on the Birrana's, wish I still had one? Wish I had built the Renault R5 Turbo too! How is James McGaughey?

Let us get something straight, chassis 008 was never ever fitted with a 4V/ Waggot 2 L prior the Zampati ownership of this car , that Waggot originally came out of the Ramsay/ Granton Harrison Elfin 600C now owned by Ian Ross ... 008 was measured and parts made to fit the Waggot when the chassis was constructed in 1973 & all those parts are in my posession including the Birrana made exhaust . And by the way , i was the third employee of Birrana Cars in 1972 and i know the full story of the 1972 car..

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

272-??? - Ramsey and guests in 1972
272-??? - Brock 1972 - Zampatti ...
three other early cars unknown
273-006 - Unknown 1973 - Unknown 1974 ... Dean Hosking (UK) 1975
273-007 - Geoghegan 1973 (‘works’ entry in Singapore 1973), then Tony Stewart ANF2, Don Ubergang 73/74
273-008 - Brock 1973 - Zampatti - Creasy
273-009 - Unknown 1973 ... Buesselmann & Muir 1974; UK 1975; tub may have been used for Minos F2
273-010 - Malcolm Ramsay 1973 ('works' car) and Geoghegan at Macau, then Crawford 19?? ... Chas Talbot 1981
374-011 - F3 to John Blanden for Dean Hosking in Aust.
274-012 - Prejawa 1974 ... (then who?)
374-013 - Unknown (F3 based, BUT with 1600cc ford pushrod)
374-014 - Lew Wade 1974 (for Van Heusen series as F3 with a 1300cc Brian Sampson Toyota Corolla) ... later Paul King for F3 ... later Jack Klaver in AF2 between 1981 and 1985 and highly modified by 1985
274-015 - Geoghegan 1974 (works car) - Alfredo Costanzo 1975
274-016 - Talbot 1974 ... Baker; believed destroyed in Baker’s 1977 Wigram crash
274-017 - Allison 1974 ... (then who?)
274-018 - Neil Rear 1974 (1600cc twin cam) - Geoff Brabham 1975 - Ray Winter to replace ex. Mildren Yellow Submarine, and is now in hands of John Holmes (Toowoomba, Qld)
376-020 - F3 1976
A78-020 - Ramsey 1978
AA71/1 - First FF

I've highlighted a few gaps above - quite a few of the early cars have patchy histories.

It's amazing how much we've assembled.

Allen

This post needs to be corrected before what is written becomes fokelaw and the bible for Eligibility Officers......

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Peter Nightingale

This post needs to be corrected before what is written becomes fokelaw and the bible for Eligibility Officers......

Off you go then!

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Peter Nightingale

Let us get something straight, chassis 008 was never ever fitted with a 4V/ Waggot 2 L prior the Zampati ownership of this car , that Waggot originally came out of the Ramsay/ Granton Harrison Elfin 600C now owned by Ian Ross ... 008 was measured and parts made to fit the Waggot when the chassis was constructed in 1973 & all those parts are in my posession including the Birrana made exhaust . And by the way , i was the third employee of Birrana Cars in 1972 and i know the full story of the 1972 car..

If you read my post carefully, it was not suggested the 008 was fitted with the Waggot prior to Zampatti!

My question, was the car to have originally received a Waggot if a "fitting kit" was made during construction?

[Peter Nightingale]

In answer to your question, no it was not to recieve a Waggot....

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Peter Nightingale

This post needs to be corrected before what is written becomes fokelaw and the bible for Eligibility Officers......

Please go ahead Peter.

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Peter Nightingale

In answer to your question, no it was not to recieve a Waggot....

Then why the fitting kit?

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

Then why the fitting kit?

It was only ever carried out as a hypothetical exersize just in case the south east asian regs may have allowed it of which they never did. The other two Birrana's with rear engine frames with Waggot mounts were the Crawford 273 which also was outfitted with mounts for rising rate front suspension, and the A78 273 Type car, the very last car built, this car had Waggot mounts in the rear engine frames, but again never used because of the reg's in south east asia which the A78 was built for but the reg's went from 2liter free design to BDA Atlantic overnight. This was also fitted with fuel bags to suit a 2L engine useage.......

[Peter Nightingale]

Please remember that all Birrana designs except F/F were for either Australian F2 or for possibly a South East Asian series of races of the time.....

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by Peter Nightingale

Please remember that all Birrana designs except F/F were for either Australian F2 or for possibly a South East Asian series of races of the time.....

A correction is in order , that last statement should have read, Australian F3 and F2 or possibly a South Asian Series of races of the time....

[Peter Nightingale]

I have one further addition to this thread , and that is that 273 Birrana chassis # 009 is here in Adelaide and currently holds 2 log books, i CAMS AF 2 log book and an FIA F2 LOG BOOK for the period , the car fitted with a SWINDON 2L BDX for a short period and raced while the MINOS, which was a complete failure was put to paper and built... I understand the MINOS went to west australia , while 009 is here in storage for the time being..... wish we had the SWINDON BDX though.....have every thing else though

[Peter Nightingale]

And while we are on this subject of chassis for this marque all the components used for the A78 project were new inc engine and gearbox and not ' Ratted ' from any cars taken to the UK as has been alluded to in early posts to this thread.... That means ALL COMPONENTS in including spares taken with the car to MALAYSIA in 1978......

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Peter Nightingale

I have one further addition to this thread , and that is that 273 Birrana chassis # 009 is here in Adelaide and currently holds 2 log books, i CAMS AF 2 log book and an FIA F2 LOG BOOK for the period , the car fitted with a SWINDON 2L BDX for a short period and raced while the MINOS, which was a complete failure was put to paper and built... I understand the MINOS went to west australia , while 009 is here in storage for the time being..... wish we had the SWINDON BDX though.....have every thing else though

Peter,
Happy new year - shot of the Minos in Bill Downeys hands at Wanneroo, see www.warm.org.au

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Peter,
Happy new year - shot of the Minos in Bill Downeys hands at Wanneroo, see www.warm.org.au

Cavvy , Happy New Year to yourself and family, thanks for the info on Bill Downey , cheers............

[Bob Creasy]

I am reasonably sure that when Bernie purchased the ex-Brock car, he also purchased the wagget engine with it. I am sure that somewhere at that stage the car was raced with that 2 L engine. I know when i bought the car from Bernie it came complete with a blown twin can, this car is now back in the possession of the Zamppatti family. I always thought that is if one rebuilt that wagget with cosworth pistons and L1 cans it would be the ultimate historic car.

Best to everyone for the new year.
Bob Creasy

[Camaroz]

Hi Bob,

HNY.

As I was told when I had the car, when Brock bought the 273 from Paul England, he leased a PE Twin Cam for it as Brock was trying to put together a deal to run Izusu motors. As the F2 deal fell away with pressure from Harry and Holden, Brock then sold the car to Bernie with no engine!

Not sure where Bernie got the Waggott from but I was told by Ross some years later that the WASCC basically "banned" the car with the Waggot! Is this about the time you bought the car Bob?

Cheers, Rowan.

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by Bob Creasy

I am reasonably sure that when Bernie purchased the ex-Brock car, he also purchased the wagget engine with it. I am sure that somewhere at that stage the car was raced with that 2 L engine. I know when i bought the car from Bernie it came complete with a blown twin can, this car is now back in the possession of the Zamppatti family. I always thought that is if one rebuilt that wagget with cosworth pistons and L1 cans it would be the ultimate historic car.

Best to everyone for the new year.
Bob Creasy

The Waggot engine i previously talked about was a 4V/TC engine built for the Elfin 600 of M. Ramsay in the 1960/s . This engine was rebuilt buy myself in 1977 prior to sale to Bernie Zampatti in approx 1977 this carried engine # 008/9 of which i still have the original waggot spec sheet for this engine for this Efin 600 is now owned by Ian Ross and is currently fitted with a REPCO 2.5L v8 and run in Historics , this car able to be fitted with a Waggot 4v TC or a REPCO 2.5L V8....

[Colin Jack Racing]

Originally Posted by bazza_d

If anyone is interested I currently own this car, I have the logbook sitting in front of me, so if anyone wants any information regarding this car please contact me.

Hi I raced this 274 for Paul Liston in 1980, I would love to get details and photo history for my own interest, all the best, Col Jack

[williamsf1]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

Allen and everybody else.

This will fill a lot of gaps and I [THINK ONLY] just about as far we can go at this point.

001 F.Ford --John Goss 1971 , David Mingay 1972 to Warwick Marks to current Paul Hamilton. CH.NO. AA71-1
002 272 F2 Birrana Cars , Malclm Ramsay, Henk Woelders , Peter Brock , Zampatti, poss. the car now back with Zampatti with a 2.0 Waggott , bought back as a birthday present for Zampatti by his family. This cars history is really confusing as we believed some of the cars components were rebuilt into 008. The jury is still well and truly OUT on this at the moment.
003, F.Ford 1972 Steve Dewhurst , now with Ken Williams , ch.pl. says 501, and no I don't know why.
004 F.Ford , 1972 or 1973 can't ascertain . for Jon Davidson , now with John Holmes , Toowoomba , QLD.
005 F.Ford , 1972/3 Andrew Miedecke ,, now , unknown.
006 273 F2, Birrana Cars , then Paul Feltham , then Bob and Marj. Brown drv. Mal Ramsay. then ?? prob. U.K. Dean Hosking / spare , now ????
007 273 , 1973 Birrana Cars -Tony Stewart
1974 Don Uerbergang- then Peter Warren
now John Holmes.
008 273 Peter Brock sold March 1974 to Bernie Zampatti and fitted at some stage with a 2.0 Waggott, refitted with 1.6 twin cam and sold to Bob Creasy August 1976 and sometimes called a 274 due to updated panels . In June 1977 fitted with a Cosworth BDD , sold Jan. 1982 to E.A.J. Purvis of W.A. ,sold March 1984 to A.McIntyre/ R.Harmon .
By 1991 with Bruce Mactier of Victoria. U nknown since and may be the car sold to Zampatti's family.
009-273 Bob and Marj Brown Busselman /Muir to U.K. 1975 maybe Minos later . ????
010-273 Birrana Cars 1973 , 1974 Graham Crawford , also Leo G. etc.etc.
011 , Blanden , 8-1-74 --3-3-75, Ian Cook 3-3-75-15-7-75, then to Richard Steigler 15-7-75 till 4-12-75, then to David Booth 4-12-75 till 20-5-80 , then to Terry Harris 20-5-80 till 1-2-96 , then to Phil Shaw , retained untill about 3 months ago , now with Ross Hodgson of Sydney.
012 274 , but believed late delivery, used by Wolfy [his nickname] I saw car circa 1980 , being refurbished by Mick Kouros and fitted with MK.9 instead of FT200, and a suspicion by myself it was ex. Paul Liston's works where it may have been cannibalised for components for the Liston F2 car,car has never re-appeared and is still I believe with the same owner . I know who and where but will respect his privacy.
013 , is also owned by Ross Hodgson.
014 ??? don't know present status.
015 , is now with , and has been for about 10 years , Noel and Andrew Robson of Melb. Yes Allen the same Robsons with the Lola F5000.
017. for many years with Kerry Luckins of Melbourne
018 , with John Holmes Qld.
Speedway car S74 with John Holmes .
020 376 , now with Gary Hancock of Gosford N.S.W. , Don Hewitt owned at one stage , Gemini eng. also others .
020 A78 F/Atlantic, Mal Ramsay , now with John Holmes.

I have prob. left something out , or given you more questions to ask, I am not familiar with any of the 1600cc F2 pushrod happenings , as I was well into historics at this stage.

Bryan.

could someone help me finding out what happened to FF race winner David Mingay? where is he now.....????

PM me if you could!

[Haggis 2]

I was present at all Wanneroo meetings in the 1970's (and most before and since!). I always believed that the Minos was not Birrana based, but was the Bill Downey Lotus FJunior car (I think a Lotus 19 or 20) running a 1600 Lotus twin cam and dodgy "modern" body work. If so, the car is now back in original form (owned by WA Racing Museum) and competes regularly in VSCC events in WA driven by Glen Caple.
_____________________
Brendon Hagarty

[BIRRANA]

birrana 273 chassis no 006 is the minos. it was birrana based then they put march running gear in it including march suspension.

[BIRRANA]

sorry i made a mistake on my last post it was meant to say lola running gear and suspension not march