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Old 1 Aug 2010, 16:33 (Ref:2737541)   #51
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That was no worse than some of the idiotic moves we've seen this year that have gone totally unpunished. Don't see why people are so up in arms about it, but then it is Schumacher...

Just because driving standards are bad doesn't mean we should make a scapegoat out of one of the best. The FIA have consistently left incidents unpunished this year, so to slap on a penalty like this now (which is a bit absurd considering Michael finished the race and you're supposed to stick to penalties for the race if they finish) is hypocritical and a bit late

What about that actual accident that actually happened in Valencia? Nothing done...
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 16:37 (Ref:2737544)   #52
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Agreed, Webber got off lightly.
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 16:48 (Ref:2737554)   #53
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That was no worse than some of the idiotic moves we've seen this year that have gone totally unpunished.

What about that actual accident that actually happened in Valencia? Nothing done...
Name one, apart from Valencia, that was a dangerous as this?

In Valencia Webber made a very bad mistake - but his intention was clearly NOT to take out the other driver - so surely that deserves different consideration? The only incident that comes close in my book this season was Vettel's move on Webber in Turkey, though he himself was not forced off the track by Webber. Schui did his best in Canada a couple of times, so if there was a totting up system he would probably have the most points. In the pit lane, at the very least Hamilton and Alonso would have earned some points too.....

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Old 1 Aug 2010, 16:52 (Ref:2737556)   #54
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Look at the boys avatar Phoenix.
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 16:55 (Ref:2737559)   #55
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Vettel has been trying to emulate the schumacher chop, but the master still has it down to a fine art.

I think he has got off lightly with a 10 place grid drop.

He should have had a ban or massive fine or points on his licence or perhaps all three.
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 16:58 (Ref:2737563)   #56
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Look at the boys avatar Phoenix.
And your point is? (gone over my head, anyway...)

Ah - I think I might have deciphered it!

I've just seen a replay of the incident on the BBC evening news - Schui HIMSELF was nearly over the white line defining the edge of the track - only 5cms from it at the most, never mind Rubens. How wide is a 2010 F1 car? That was WAY more than a squeeze - particularly with concrete, not grass or run off area, being the only place Rubens could go.

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Old 1 Aug 2010, 17:04 (Ref:2737568)   #57
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That was no worse than some of the idiotic moves we've seen this year that have gone totally unpunished. Don't see why people are so up in arms about it, but then it is Schumacher...
Try as I might I can't recall an incident where a driver was deliberately forced four wheels off the track at 180 odd mph and this up against a concrete wall. The white line is the edge of the track and TGF took his car right up to the white line leaving RB four wheels off. Rubens car is 1.8m wide MS didn't even leave him 1.8cm of track to drive on.

In my opinion It was one of the most dangerous pieces of driving I've ever seen and the more stupid for being completely pointless, at the time MS did this Rubens was fully alongside and was obviously going to come out of the first corner in the lead whatever MS did.
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 17:19 (Ref:2737580)   #58
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Name one, apart from Valencia, that was a dangerous as this?
Vettel driving into Webber and actually causing an accident in Turkey

Michael driving into Massa and actually causing an accident in Canada

di Grassi weaving about to try and hold back Alonso in Monaco

Vettel's chops off the start line, in particular in Germany

There's been a general decline in driving standards over the last year ortwo2. I don't see why they should suddenly punish Michael and make him a scapegoat when there are 23 other drivers out there, most of whom have been involved in a similar incident at some point in their careers (and if they haven't, they're not trying hard enough)

The fact is, they didn't touch. There was no enormous accident. So it couldn't have been that dangerous. Motor racing itself is dangerous. It says so on the ticket and the drivers know it. Rubens just has a chip on his shoulder

If this had been, say, Kobayashi aggressively defending against Alguersuari, we would not be talking about it, and neither would the stewards. As far as I can see, this is just a cheap shot against TGF, the same as it was a cheap shot at Alonso and Ferrari last week

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In Valencia Webber made a very bad mistake - but his intention was clearly NOT to take out the other driver - so surely that deserves different consideration?
I'm talking about Kovalainen's weaving. Mark was a bit clumsy but Heikki clearly moved more than once, which is against the rules

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Try as I might I can't recall an incident where a driver was deliberately forced four wheels off the track at 180 odd mph and this up against a concrete wall
Well I can think of a couple:

Webber (yes, my favourite driver) driving Massa into the pit wall at Fuji a couple of years ago (at a much higher speed too)

Raikkonen driving Schumacher himself into the pit wall at Interlagos in 2006

I can also think of numerous aggressive blocks that have resulted in a car on the grass - Mark's done it a couple of times, so has Alonso, and so has Lewis (at Monza 2008 he did it a couple of times). Equally I don't think this is the most dangerous thing Michael has ever done. So how is it suddenly that Michael should be banned for life? Easy target, cheap shot...
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 17:20 (Ref:2737582)   #59
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Not good was it, i think despite Michaels affable nature during interviews he is frustrated and seething inside. He could not have imagined that his comeback would be this bad, pretty well eclipsed by his teammate, often scrapping it out in the middle of the field and coming off worse and then being passed by his old number two. For me he did it deliberately under the influence of the red mist, he should know better. I imagine he will commence the 2011 season but if the car isn't a winning proposition i think he will retire after a few races.
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 17:43 (Ref:2737593)   #60
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The fact is, they didn't touch. There was no enormous accident. So it couldn't have been that dangerous. Motor racing itself is dangerous. It says so on the ticket and the drivers know it. Rubens just has a chip on his shoulder.
Sorry, jab, but that's a ridiculous argument. How can your say that something is only dangerous if it results in an enormous accident? If anyone had a chip on his shoulder in that incident it would be MS at the thought of being overtaken by the once subservient Rubens.
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 17:45 (Ref:2737597)   #61
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The fact is, they didn't touch. There was no enormous accident. So it couldn't have been that dangerous. Motor racing itself is dangerous. It says so on the ticket and the drivers know it. Rubens just has a chip on his shoulder
You are unbelieveable! It clearly was flipping dangerous!

Motor racing is dangerous - and it says so on the ticket - but no-one signs up to someone else trying to kill them - that is definitely NOT on the ticket. What is on the ticket is that high speed accidents can cause injury or death and that accidents happen. That is not the same thing as signing up to letting some idiot try and put you in the wall - on purpose.

In the post race interview Rubens seemed mighily 'un-chippy' to me - though I think he thought himself lucky to be alive so he was probably celebrating somewhat inside.....
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 17:51 (Ref:2737603)   #62
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Well I can think of a couple:

Webber (yes, my favourite driver) driving Massa into the pit wall at Fuji a couple of years ago (at a much higher speed too)

Raikkonen driving Schumacher himself into the pit wall at Interlagos in 2006

I can also think of numerous aggressive blocks that have resulted in a car on the grass - Mark's done it a couple of times, so has Alonso, and so has Lewis (at Monza 2008 he did it a couple of times). Equally I don't think this is the most dangerous thing Michael has ever done. So how is it suddenly that Michael should be banned for life? Easy target, cheap shot...
In the post I was challenging you were talking about incidents THIS year. As you are delving back into previous seasons you might like to catalogue the Schumacher incidents over the years for us - have you got the time?
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 17:58 (Ref:2737610)   #63
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Sorry, jab, but that's a ridiculous argument. How can your say that something is only dangerous if it results in an enormous accident?
Because the definition of the word "dangerous" is open to interpretation. I'm sure Michael's definition is different to us mere mortals, or even to other racing drivers it seems

I'm sure Michael would've thought that what he was doing was not too dangerous, otherwise he wouldn't have done. That there wasn't a crash justifies that. He's not stupid - he knows when to pull out. Just look at Japan 2005

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In the post I was challenging you were talking about incidents THIS year.
That part of the post wasn't responding to you, it was respoding to fourWheelDrift
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 18:05 (Ref:2737614)   #64
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Because the definition of the word "dangerous" is open to interpretation. I'm sure Michael's definition is different to us mere mortals, or even to other racing drivers it seems

I'm sure Michael would've thought that what he was doing was not too dangerous, otherwise he wouldn't have done. That there wasn't a crash justifies that. He's not stupid - he knows when to pull out. Just look at Japan 2005


That part of the post wasn't responding to you, it was respoding to fourWheelDrift
Curiously enough I was talking about this year too as that seemed to be the context of the discussion
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 18:14 (Ref:2737618)   #65
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Because the definition of the word "dangerous" is open to interpretation. I'm sure Michael's definition is different to us mere mortals, or even to other racing drivers it seems

I'm sure Michael would've thought that what he was doing was not too dangerous, otherwise he wouldn't have done. That there wasn't a crash justifies that.
In the UK (and I suspect other countries) there is a driving offence of dangerous driving and another offence of causing death by dangerous driving.

There doesn't need to be an accident for an act to be dangerous. For example, lots of changes have been made to cars and circuits over the years to reduce potential danger. What Schui did was potentially dangerous if not ultimately causing an injury or death. I don't think you could honestly argue with that. If someone squeezed you into the armco running down the centre of the M3 - what would you call it? Or off the inside lane, onto the hard shoulder, and then beyond that of the edge off the motorway onto the green stuff? Even if you didn't hit the armco, or run off the motorway, would you say "oh, that's cool. No accident therefore no danger"?

I somehow doubt it........

And even if you did, I doubt your passengers would agree.
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 18:20 (Ref:2737619)   #66
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But it's only potentially dangerous if neither he or Rubens are not in full control of their vehicles. And I think he knew that he was and probably trusted Rubens to be as well. You have to know who you're pulling these moves against - I doubt Michael would've done the same against a youngster like Petrov or Hulkenberg, for instance
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 18:21 (Ref:2737620)   #67
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What Schumacher did was disgraceful. And Dangerous. However I don't think the comparisons to a road situation add much. Ignore that, we don't need it, it was still dangerous.

Although I'd stop short of the talk of manslaughter.
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 18:24 (Ref:2737624)   #68
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But it's only potentially dangerous if neither he or Rubens are not in full control of their vehicles. And I think he knew that he was and probably trusted Rubens to be as well. You have to know who you're pulling these moves against - I doubt Michael would've done the same against a youngster like Petrov or Hulkenberg, for instance
You think? What age would he consider 'to young to kill' - in your opinion?
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 18:26 (Ref:2737627)   #69
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While the worse consequence on a race track is death. I'm not sure the melodrama helps us here.
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 18:26 (Ref:2737628)   #70
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You think? What age would he consider 'to young to kill' - in your opinion?
It's not age. It's experience. You have to know who you're racing against. You can trust that Rubens isn't going to turn in on you because he's done a million races and he's been in similar situations before, but not necessarily a rookie, because they don't have the experience to necessarily know when to pull out of a move. Hence why you see more crashes and more aggressive driving in lower formulae
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 18:28 (Ref:2737630)   #71
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What Schumacher did was disgraceful. And Dangerous. However I don't think the comparisons to a road situation add much.
I would like to agree with you - but I can't. What might be considered dangerous in driving was the debate, and not causing an accident was the defence. And now we have the argument that Schui KNEW Rubens wouldn't hit the wall so it was safe. Uhhh?
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 18:29 (Ref:2737633)   #72
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Hence why you see more crashes and more aggressive driving in lower formulae
Which is obviously where Schui belongs - back to F3 - or lower - to re-learn........
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 18:33 (Ref:2737636)   #73
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Jab, I have just cottoned on to the fact that you are trying to wind me up and don't believe a word of what you are saying... I think it's called 'trolling'.

Well, Jab the Troll, I will respond no more to your posts!
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 18:34 (Ref:2737638)   #74
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Good for you

However, I'm not trolling. I'm not the one suggesting the guy who holds all the records in F1 should go back to F3 to "relearn" how to race
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Old 1 Aug 2010, 18:34 (Ref:2737639)   #75
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What Schumacher did was disgraceful. And Dangerous. However I don't think the comparisons to a road situation add much. Ignore that, we don't need it, it was still dangerous.

Although I'd stop short of the talk of manslaughter.

He should get a race ban for that move.
He has never learned what is / is not acceptable.
He did something similar to his brother off the line in Germany.

Back in the day he was fighting for the championship, maybethats how people justified it, today he was fighting a car for p10, a car that was 2 seconds a lap quicker and he had just made a mistake on the previous corner and knew that the other car would slip stream him.


Deserves a ban.

Send out a clear message that its not ok to do this, otherwise the prescedent has been sent that you can push people into the wall in top gear down the straight, if MSCH can do it why can't others - starting from karting all the way up to F1..
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