[Official] Belgian Grand Prix 2016: Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by gert

Where did I slam the team? I don't think I did :/

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EDIT: If I say "the rules are broken" I did not mean the team broke the rules, but that there is something wrong with the rules itself.
The rules are broken as in "the rules don't work" not as in "Mercedes (or Hamilton) tried to cheat".

Misunderstanding.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by old man

That is how it worked before but I agree with Martin Brundle, it is not really the drivers fault that the team has mechanical problems. His suggestion is to take points from the team in the teams championship. No real reason to penalise a driver, 55 places now, for mechanical failure. Penalise the driver for driving errors, the team for car faults.

I really don't understand why people keep suggesting that. It simply won't work. How do you work out how many points to give the team when the driver crashes? How do you work out how many points to give the driver when the wheel falls off.

It's "Win together, lose together". Oddly enough this seems to be fully accepted by drivers and teams, and it's only pundits and forumites who see it differently.

[old man]

The idea was that if a mechanical failure warrants a grid penalty under the rules, the team should bear that penalty by having points DEDUCTED from its score. If a driver warrants a penalty then grid position changes are reasonable.

Earnings for a team are somehow based upon points scored so deducting points would hit them in the pocket as Brundle points out. If MB were to have 55 points deducted from those scored up to now it would hurt and in a more competitive season could mean not winning the Team Championship. The penalty points need not be same as the grid place figure, that would be up to the FIA to stipulate.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gert

I agree to a certain extent, but it will probably never work out.
* if a driver crashes a team gets no points
* if the engine expires the driver gets no points

Driver and car are in in together.


Also, once the manufacturer's championship has been sealed, Mercedes could give Rosberg and/or Hamilton fresh engines every race, regain the points lost, and play the same trick the next race or the race thereafter.

Isn't that even worse than it is now?

In the case of an unsafe pit release, the team should be penalised not the driver. The driver is totally reliant on the team, to tell them when it's safe to go.

[apj868]

How about we change these grid penalties into time added to the first pit stop? For example, each grid place penalty in the current system could translate into 1 or 2 seconds being added to the car's first pitstop. That way everyone will get the same penalty no matter where they qualify.

Biggest problem I see is trying to keep casual fans engaged who just throw the race on on Sunday and may not understand why their favorite driver is getting a penalty that was gained earlier in the weekend.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by old man

That is how it worked before but I agree with Martin Brundle, it is not really the drivers fault that the team has mechanical problems. His suggestion is to take points from the team in the teams championship. No real reason to penalise a driver, 55 places now, for mechanical failure. Penalise the driver for driving errors, the team for car faults.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

In the case of an unsafe pit release, the team should be penalised not the driver. The driver is totally reliant on the team, to tell them when it's safe to go.

Problem with this concept is that it is a team sport and the team get penalised - the driver is a member of the team and if the driver does something deserving of a penalty, the team get penalised, same if the car controller allows an unsafe release, the team get penalised. Also the same if the team wins a race, they all benefit. As the driver is a member of the team, the driver's points position is impacted by wins, losses and penalties.

They win together, they lose together, they get rewarded together, they get penalised together.

If you extend the idea of apportioning blame to either driver or other team members and therefore who suffers a points penalty, there is a logic fail. Let's say for example that a driver gets penalised for exceeding track limits. The driver could claim the fault lay with the setup of the car and that therefore the driver should not suffer a penalty.

Likewise, a car controller could blame a driver for an unsafe release if the driver hesitated or jumped early - no doubt the driver could then blame the engine management or clutch engagement etc. It's potentially a never-ending cycle of finger pointing and negativity.

On the other hand, as MB have designed built and run what is categorically the best car this year, does that mean that the drivers should not get rewarded with points as it is the work of other team members that has put the cars right at the front?

I'm sorry, it's an unworkable idea and even less so as this is a team sport.

[gert]

Originally Posted by apj868

How about we change these grid penalties into time added to the first pit stop? For example, each grid place penalty in the current system could translate into 1 or 2 seconds being added to the car's first pitstop. That way everyone will get the same penalty no matter where they qualify.

Biggest problem I see is trying to keep casual fans engaged who just throw the race on on Sunday and may not understand why their favorite driver is getting a penalty that was gained earlier in the weekend.

And that (the casual fan not getting it) is probably also why they binned the idea of carrying over grid penalties to the next weekend.

It would not have been ideal, but the current system isn't either.

[Richard C]

I haven't put a great deal of thought into flaws with this idea, but a way to stop the process of "banking" power supplies by using multiple in a weekend when multiple penalties are pointless is to just not let them "bank" them. In short set a maximum of power units that can be saved for reuse after a race weekend. So you can put as many in the car as you want over the course of a weekend, but once you are penalized to the back of the grid any additional unit can't be banked.

So you enter the weekend and swap units. That puts you at back of grid. You can keep that new unit after the weekend. Then, you swap in another during the weekend. Then the previous new unit is no longer eligible for reuse in the future. Rinse and repeat. It would allow unlimited units over a weekend, but you would always start at back of grid.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tourer

They win together, they lose together, they get rewarded together, they get penalised together.

But do they? Constructor's points are a combination of the driver's points. The driver's pints are purely individual. Nico's demotion from 2nd to 3rd at the British GP, affected Nico far more than it did Mercedes. It's needle between Nico and Lewis and the result was he lost 4 valuable points and the gap between him and Lewis closed to within a point. Yes Mercedes lost 4 points as well because of Nico's demotion but because Lewis won, this gave Mercedes another 25. So at the end of the day, after deducting 4 points because of Nico's demotion, they still came away with an extra 21 points.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

But do they? Constructor's points are a combination of the driver's points. The driver's pints are purely individual. Nico's demotion from 2nd to 3rd at the British GP, affected Nico far more than it did Mercedes. It's needle between Nico and Lewis and the result was he lost 4 valuable points and the gap between him and Lewis closed to within a point. Yes Mercedes lost 4 points as well because of Nico's demotion but because Lewis won, this gave Mercedes another 25. So at the end of the day, after deducting 4 points because of Nico's demotion, they still came away with an extra 21 points.

It still means 4 points less for MB and if another team was closer, that could be a big deal but with the 2 mercs so far in front, agree that's it's less of a deal in this year's championship. On the other hand, were it (say) Haas, you could argue that such a penalty would have a larger impact on the team overall than on the driver - as team points can have a big impact on freight costs, reimbursement etc and those 4 points could be worth a lot to the team.

As always, there will always be swings and roundabouts but in a team sport, that is the way it works.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tourer

It still means 4 points less for MB and if another team was closer, that could be a big deal but with the 2 mercs so far in front, agree that's it's less of a deal in this year's championship. On the other hand, were it (say) Haas, you could argue that such a penalty would have a larger impact on the team overall than on the driver - as team points can have a big impact on freight costs, reimbursement etc and those 4 points could be worth a lot to the team.

As always, there will always be swings and roundabouts but in a team sport, that is the way it works.

It is 4 points less than they could have got but it's not as if that was it and they had nothing else to show for it. Mercedes added another 21 points to their total because Lewis won.

[TrapezeArtist]

We're drifting from the question of grid penalties to the one of team and driver championships. How about dropping the manufacturers championship altogether? It's only significance is the allocation of money in the following year, so that could be changed to one based on the drivers' points, or maybe even a more left-leaning system that didn't continually reward the haves at the expense of the have-nots.

In terms of publicity and marketing, it's far more valuable to Mercedes-Benz (as the current example) to have the World Championship driver on their team, than to be the World Championship team.

[billy bleach]

Ted Kravitz (made up name) gee whiz he makes James Allen look good. What was that shambles on the grid on Sky all about?!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

We're drifting from the question of grid penalties to the one of team and driver championships. How about dropping the manufacturers championship altogether? It's only significance is the allocation of money in the following year, so that could be changed to one based on the drivers' points, or maybe even a more left-leaning system that didn't continually reward the haves at the expense of the have-nots.

In terms of publicity and marketing, it's far more valuable to Mercedes-Benz (as the current example) to have the World Championship driver on their team, than to be the World Championship team.

Strictly speaking, we're drifting from the thread itself but such is motorsport, it's convoluted.

Oh I agree about publicity and marketing. This is a marketing dream and just what a car manufacturer in F1 wants, The F1 Word Champion drives our car. You don't even have to be a motorsports fan at all, for the message to get across.

Back to the race, it will be interesting to see how tyres hold up, or not.

[bjohnsonsmith]

That was a messy start. Vettel got turned around trying to squeeze Kimi and Verstappen damaged his nose, with drivers running wide.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Big shunt at the top of Eau Rouge, as Magnusson goes backwards into the tyre wall. There was a VC after the start but this is the first FCY.

[bjohnsonsmith]

The race has been Red flagged, as the tyre wall and barrier are fixed after Magnusson's crash.

Edit: restart in 10 minutes.

[Born Racer]

Verstappen was instinctive but a bit too optimistic in my opinion.

[billy bleach]

K Mag out for Monza? Jorda in.? .............or not......

[bjohnsonsmith]

Lewis up to 3rd. I don't know why people thought he'd muddle along in the middle of the field. I never underestimate this guy.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Verstappen was instinctive but a bit too optimistic in my opinion.

I agree. As exciting as he can be to watch, there was effectively zero chance that was going to work. He actually didn't get a good start and he only put himself into the mix by dive bombing turn one as everyone else had slowed to an appropriate speed to make the turn. If you watch the speed and angle of his entry and angle on exit, he was always going to collide with someone. Not to mention he was probably four off on the inside. It was very interesting to see him talking to team after red flag. He was arguing they just turned into him! They seemed to be like.. Umm, yea, that was your fault.

Poor Kimi. He seemed to have a good start. Vettle just turned into him. I assume Vettle just lost track of how close Kimi was.

Regarding Magnussen's crash. That was scary. Notice how the cockpit head protection bumper popped off mid crash.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

That was a bit hairy, Alonso and Hulkenberg racing down Pit Road. A bit IndyCar.

[canamman]

Battles galore, everywhere. No wonder the place is packed.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Congrats to Nico, despite the Yellows and the Red flag, kept it together and an excellent drive from Lewis. That's just what I expected from him.

[Robert]

Rosberg not very popular here?