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Old 5 Sep 2016, 11:02 (Ref:3670254)   #26
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Paraphrasing a little, the definition in the Blue Book (MSA Regs, and very similar for F1) is that the white line and *any painted kerb* denotes the edge of the track.

It's a long lens, that photo, but looks to me like the RB is on the kerb rather than over it at that point. As long as 1mm of the tyre is still on the line or kerb, track limits are not being broken - the wheel must be fully over to get pinged.

Yes, I've spent two years eyeballing various kerbs/lines/track edges and yes, at times, I get bloody fed up with it. However - standards are starting to improve at club level in some cases; it'll only take about another hundred years to get to F1...
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Old 5 Sep 2016, 11:27 (Ref:3670257)   #27
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chris bailey should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridchris bailey should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I know I'm wandering off topic here (as is my habit), but is there a thread anywhere which has discussed/explained how Mercedes managed to get all Lewis' engine penalties wiped in one go with the 749-place grid-place drop at Spa? I was waiting for the FIA steward at Monza to push him to the back of the grid to use up the next 20 (?) places, following the handful he lost following his qualification "effort" in Belgium. How the Tifosi would have loved that....
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Old 5 Sep 2016, 11:29 (Ref:3670258)   #28
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it's how the rules work. all penalties get applied at once. mercedes themselves actually lobbied for that system to be changed earlier in the season, but weren't successful.
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Old 5 Sep 2016, 23:01 (Ref:3670373)   #29
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I know I'm wandering off topic here (as is my habit), but is there a thread anywhere which has discussed/explained how Mercedes managed to get all Lewis' engine penalties wiped in one go with the 749-place grid-place drop at Spa? I was waiting for the FIA steward at Monza to push him to the back of the grid to use up the next 20 (?) places, following the handful he lost following his qualification "effort" in Belgium. How the Tifosi would have loved that....
He'd probably have had to push him back to Spa...
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Old 6 Sep 2016, 08:53 (Ref:3670452)   #30
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He'd probably have had to push him back to Spa...
Even Eddie Jordan, a rabid Lewis fan if ever there was one, said it was wrong in his view.

Goodness me, I find myself agreeing with Eddie Jordan.........
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Old 6 Sep 2016, 09:59 (Ref:3670465)   #31
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It is how the rules are written, Mercedes did nothing wrong, they exploited the rules by working exactly to the letter of them. (This is something that Formula One teams excel at!)
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Old 6 Sep 2016, 20:54 (Ref:3670615)   #32
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It is how the rules are written, Mercedes did nothing wrong, they exploited the rules by working exactly to the letter of them. (This is something that Formula One teams excel at!)
and they make Bernie and the FIA look very silly at the same time, the perfect win-win situation some might say - I couldn't possibly comment.
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Old 7 Sep 2016, 14:54 (Ref:3670766)   #33
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Hold the front page -here we have a sport, using the term loosely, in which any racing driver who ..ahem.. acts like a racing driver is then made the subject of microscopic analysis of a move lasting 0.5 seconds , following which he may then be penalised for not only keeping some of us awake during a GP but reminding us why we love watching motor racing .

Not quite as asinine as penalising a driver and team whose highly strung racing car does what racing cars are famous for- break down.

Am I missing something ?
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Old 7 Sep 2016, 15:18 (Ref:3670770)   #34
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Hold the front page -here we have a sport, using the term loosely, in which any racing driver who ..ahem.. acts like a racing driver is then made the subject of microscopic analysis of a move lasting 0.5 seconds , following which he may then be penalised for not only keeping some of us awake during a GP but reminding us why we love watching motor racing .

Not quite as asinine as penalising a driver and team whose highly strung racing car does what racing cars are famous for- break down.

Am I missing something ?
In my mind, yes.

As far as I am concerned, and hopefully this isn't because I am viewing matters through rose tinted specs, the actual racing was far more exiting years ago when driving standards were considerably better. Cars/drivers didn't weave to maintain track position, and on the whole as far as overtaking was concerned, a whose corner it was, was determined by the positioning of the cars. A lot of this was mandated by the stability of the cars then, plus, of course, the fact that the brakes were so much more inferior that it was extremely difficult to dive down the inside of a competitor.

Unfortunately, poor driving standards were allowed to spread, and then instead of just stamping it out, the FIA (and it's pretty well filtered down to every national association) started coming out with rules about how much poor standards were permitted, such as the one move rule which had not be allowed many years before.

Drivers were gentlemen back then. Can you imagine one of today's drivers being called into the pits so that he could hand his car over to his team-mate, and by so doing, allowing his team-mate to win the race or even the championship? No, I can't imagine it either(maybe 1 or 2 excepted though)!
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Old 7 Sep 2016, 16:38 (Ref:3670779)   #35
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There is a danger in over-romanticising the past. Handing over cars was pretty rare, and I don't think ever happened after the 1950s. Would be completely impractical now, and is probably against the rules. And there were some pretty fierce rivalries in the supposed good old days. The big difference now, I think, is safety. In most cases now, by going wheel-to-wheel, you're not risking your life.
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Old 8 Sep 2016, 07:19 (Ref:3670931)   #36
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Mike- I think the bigger change by far in driver behaviour is the fact that the toxic recipe of ultra grippy tyres, huge aero grip. semi auto boxes(which eliminate a missed gear overtaking opportunity ) and some pretty awful circuits (Spa not included ) has removed most of the traditional overtaking strategies hitherto available to racers back in the day.

Desperate times call for desperate measures . But traditional overtaking etiquette is alive and more or less well in such as historic FF1600, which is now contested by many young drivers
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Old 8 Sep 2016, 15:31 (Ref:3671025)   #37
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I don't disagree with the above comment on the way the drivers are having a good few lunges and the first thing that would make it so much better is if you don't have cars that are so hard to get a good run on each other
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Old 8 Sep 2016, 15:59 (Ref:3671030)   #38
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Hold the front page -here we have a sport, using the term loosely, in which any racing driver who ..ahem.. acts like a racing driver is then made the subject of microscopic analysis of a move lasting 0.5 seconds , following which he may then be penalised for not only keeping some of us awake during a GP but reminding us why we love watching motor racing .

Am I missing something ?
Yes you are. Some of us are not 8 years old again watching bumper cars at the local carnival.
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Old 8 Sep 2016, 16:02 (Ref:3671033)   #39
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In my mind, yes.

As far as I am concerned, and hopefully this isn't because I am viewing matters through rose tinted specs, the actual racing was far more exiting years ago when driving standards were considerably better. Cars/drivers didn't weave to maintain track position, and on the whole as far as overtaking was concerned, a whose corner it was, was determined by the positioning of the cars. A lot of this was mandated by the stability of the cars then, plus, of course, the fact that the brakes were so much more inferior that it was extremely difficult to dive down the inside of a competitor.

Unfortunately, poor driving standards were allowed to spread, and then instead of just stamping it out, the FIA (and it's pretty well filtered down to every national association) started coming out with rules about how much poor standards were permitted, such as the one move rule which had not be allowed many years before.

Drivers were gentlemen back then. Can you imagine one of today's drivers being called into the pits so that he could hand his car over to his team-mate, and by so doing, allowing his team-mate to win the race or even the championship? No, I can't imagine it either(maybe 1 or 2 excepted though)!
x22....or more.

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Old 8 Sep 2016, 17:24 (Ref:3671051)   #40
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Yes you are. Some of us are not 8 years old again watching bumper cars at the local carnival.
There's really no need to be quite so sneering in your response.Having watched the sport for decades I have seen countless examples of iffy moves which didn't come off . The difference between then and now is that everything wasn't televised and hence there wasn't a huge audience of armchair experts deconstructing what happened and deciding who was at fault - all shunts, of course, now being deemed to be blameworthy .

Like all of us I deprecate the more cynical manoeuvre but as I tried (and obviously failed ) to explain above ,the very nature of the modern single seater makes overtaking far harder than it has ever been before . And the line between triumph and disaster is a fine one -the Villenuve/Arnoux battle came very close to the latter but is rightly lauded as the pinnacle of racing . If it had happened now most of F1's adolescent fans would be howling for a penalty. ...
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 01:53 (Ref:3671147)   #41
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There's really no need to be quite so sneering in your response.Having watched the sport for decades I have seen countless examples of iffy moves which didn't come off . The difference between then and now is that everything wasn't televised and hence there wasn't a huge audience of armchair experts deconstructing what happened and deciding who was at fault - all shunts, of course, now being deemed to be blameworthy .

Like all of us I deprecate the more cynical manoeuvre but as I tried (and obviously failed ) to explain above ,the very nature of the modern single seater makes overtaking far harder than it has ever been before . And the line between triumph and disaster is a fine one -the Villenuve/Arnoux battle came very close to the latter but is rightly lauded as the pinnacle of racing . If it had happened now most of F1's adolescent fans would be howling for a penalty. ...
Mike's post above is absolutely correct, the actual point that you are missing is that it is impossible to dice with a competitor that does not respect the "rules". If you cannot trust your adversary to do something stupid like deliberately chop across in a braking zone, then you just plain cannot race him.

The example you quote of Arnoux and Villeneuve racing is only possible when the drivers trust one another completely.
It would have been fairly easy for either Arnoux or Villeneuve to have put the other over the fence at any point in that dice.

One wonders what the howls of protest will look like if and when one of Max's more experienced competitors chooses to put him over the fence when he places himself at risk.

There is a big difference between balancing a car on an edge with your oppositions front wheel next to your cockpit, and simply lighting up the rears and pushing him off, that is not racing!

The ability to race requires the ability to TRUST, which means you have to respect the "rules".

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Old 9 Sep 2016, 03:04 (Ref:3671157)   #42
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There's really no need to be quite so sneering in your response.

-the Villenuve/Arnoux battle came very close to the latter but is rightly lauded as the pinnacle of racing . If it had happened now most of F1's adolescent fans would be howling for a penalty. ...
No sneering at all...notice the smiling wink.

Penalty for what? Neither car was even damaged. (I'm presuming, France, 1979, iirc)
They battled verrry closely and cleanly. As it should be.
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 06:50 (Ref:3671189)   #43
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Understood . Re Rene/ Gilles , such is the mindset of many of F1's younger adherents that virtually anything that resembles mano a mano racing is condemned as potentially dangerous . After all, overtaking is now all about pit stop strategies - be still my beating heart .
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 07:21 (Ref:3671192)   #44
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There is a danger in over-romanticising the past.
Nah,one of the greatest F1 races of all time IMHO..todays racing doesn't even compare...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr9U8UNjKFk
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 12:54 (Ref:3671239)   #45
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I love the battle between Rene and Gilles, but the thing about the battle was a good number of people who have seen it before, know that the same thing today would be a good one for the track limit argument
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Old 10 Sep 2016, 00:21 (Ref:3671341)   #46
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Nah,one of the greatest F1 races of all time IMHO..todays racing doesn't even compare...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr9U8UNjKFk
'One of the greatest battles (and I don't kid myself either...the real excitement was just those last coupla laps) yes. But, generally, the racing was just about, if not exactly, the same. That battle (for second, again, iirc) was rare...be honest with thy self. I've always been a proponent of not trying to equalize the playing field by artificial means. It seems de rigeur these days to entertain. I don't want artificial entertainment. I enjoy superior engineering as well as great driving; and that does not necessarily, nay, usually doesn't, produce close competition. Again, I prefer to see the verym bestdo their thing, even if it means "boring" (not to me) races for the uninitiated.

I also don't want to see drivers bashing into each other, either.

'Sorry, I'll get off my li'l soapbox now. ...........

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