Mercedes second seat?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

Williams rebuff Mercedes' initial bid for Bottas, with more discussions to come.
Sainz seems to be second on the list now?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38282791

Interesting article. So it sounds like Williams is looking for help to obtain a more experienced driver than Wehrlein (which is interesting that if Williams says "no" to Wehrlein then I assume people inside Mercedes are saying the same thing regarding promoting him to the Mercedes seat). Maybe that is where negotiations are now? Maybe to make it happen Mercedes must facilitate shuffling of seats to make a suitable driver available for Williams, provide some funding to Williams beyond the reduced engine costs, or maybe both.

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I think Wehrlein is a better bet for Mercedes than Bottas. But the Lowe-to-Williams move is potentially much more interesting.

The Lowe move is interesting.

Originally Posted by Chaynes321

Mercedes - Hamilton, Bottas
Willaims - di Resta, Stroll

Wehrlein ?

While di Resta has three years of actual F1 racing, has he been away from F1 too long to fit the likely Williams criteria for an experienced driver? Especially if Mercedes might be able to facilitate someone who is currently driving to move to Williams?

Richard

[BSchneiderFan]

Yes, di Resta is a pipe-dream. I liked him as a driver and don't think he got the credit he deserved, but his chance in F1 has passed now.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Interesting article. So it sounds like Williams is looking for help to obtain a more experienced driver than Wehrlein (which is interesting that if Williams says "no" to Wehrlein then I assume people inside Mercedes are saying the same thing regarding promoting him to the Mercedes seat)

An additional reason for Williams to say "no" to Wehrlein is that he would be paired with a rookie, whilst at Mercedes it would be Wehrlein with Hamilton.

I think Williams has a stronger case to say "no" to Wehrlein than Mercedes has.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Chaynes321

Mercedes - Hamilton, Bottas
Willaims - di Resta, Stroll

Wehrlein ?

Mercedes: Hamilton & Sainz
Torro Rosso: Kvyat & Gasly

Wehrlein ? (Sauber?)

[Akrapovic]

It won't be di Resta. He was already sent to DTM - where careers go to die.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It won't be di Resta. He was already sent to DTM - where careers go to die.

Well he came from DTM so not necessarily (and that's where Werhlein came from too).

Also Di Resta would be ideal for Martini - he's Scottish so obviously likes a drink

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by gert

An additional reason for Williams to say "no" to Wehrlein is that he would be paired with a rookie, whilst at Mercedes it would be Wehrlein with Hamilton.

I think Williams has a stronger case to say "no" to Wehrlein than Mercedes has.

Very good point. I didn't think of that. Well... I understood the Williams reasons (two rookies, but didn't extend that thinking to Mercedes... Lewis + rookie)

Richard

[bella]

i think calling wehrlein a rookie is a bit wrong. he's been working with f1 teams for quite a while so is familiar with the scene, and dtm isn't exactly a small setup either. he may not have much f1 experience but he's by no means a rookie, not even relatively so.

[Moneyseeker]

Joe Saward alluding to a suggestion that Bottas being at Williams in 2017 is in Stroll's contract - being there to lead the team on car set up and development and as a known benchmark for Lance....

Who know's?

[F1Pete]

My son just informed me that Merc has officially made an offer to Bottas. Don't know his source.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ScotsBrutesFan]

BBC reported last night that the first official approach to Williams had been rejected. Basically Williams would be screwed with out an experienced driver, plus with having a drinks sponsor would they really want 2 kids barely old enough to be seen with a glass.

[F1Pete]

Okay,..just read about it on Sky and Autosoort. Williams have rejected an offer from Merc and it is believed Merc is formulating a second offer for Bottas.

With that being said, it looks clear to me that Bottas is their number one target.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Well he came from DTM so not necessarily (and that's where Werhlein came from too).

Also Di Resta would be ideal for Martini - he's Scottish so obviously likes a drink

He came from DTM to Force India, because it was clear that like every other Mercedes/McLaren development driver, he was going to be left for his career to end in another series whilst the big teams kept hiring big names, rather than giving the young drivers they hired a chance.

Just like others like Green and Paffet, DTM is where single seater careers go to die. A couple may get out, the rest get to be touring car drivers.

[S griffin]

I found the Merc advert funny, maybe I should go down to my local Rye House and get some experience in, if only...

So it looks like Bottas is Mercedes favourite. Maybe Massa will come back with Merc, will be fun to see him against his 2008 title rival in the same team. I can't see di Resta coming back, as apparently he wasn't good at motivating the team at Force India

[justracing]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Maybe Massa will come back with Merc, will be fun to see him against his 2008 title rival in the same team.

I've been turning this one over and it makes so much sense for all parties at least as an interim solution providing Felipe still wants to race. My take on his retirement was that he graciously stepped down rather than Jenson's latest emphatic " I'm finished driving in F1" stance.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bella

i think calling wehrlein a rookie is a bit wrong. he's been working with f1 teams for quite a while so is familiar with the scene, and dtm isn't exactly a small setup either. he may not have much f1 experience but he's by no means a rookie, not even relatively so.

What makes someone a "Rookie" or maybe even an "Experienced" F1 driver?

I think first, what matters is actual time spent competing. Which to me is in the seat racing and not testing or being a reserve driver. So being part of the scene (IMHO) doesn't count. A classic definition for a rookie is someone participating in their first season. So, I would say Wehrlein was easily a rookie right up until the end of the season. So today he is barely not a rookie. So I have to agree on the "rookie" part of your comment (even if I called him a rookie above), but strongly disagree with the "not even relatively so" part! He may not be a rookie, but he still has that "new rookie" smell!

At what point is someone "Experienced" (which is germane to the discussion about Williams wanting an experienced driver if they were to give up Bottas)? I really wasn't sure how I would decide that myself. Its subjective. But I know which drivers I personally might consider experienced. I decided to look at how many actual race starts the 2016 drivers had (at end of 2016 season and with Wikipedia as source)

Name	Race Starts
Jenson Button	305
Fernando Alonso	273
Kimi Raikkonen	252
Felipe Massa	250
Nico Rosberg	206
Lewis Hamilton	188
Sebastian Vettel	178
Nico Hulkenberg	115
Sergio Perez	114
Daniel Ricciardo	109
Romain Grosjean	102
Valtteri Bottas	77
Esteban Gutierrez	59
Daniil Kvyat	57
Marcus Ericsson	56
Max Verstappen	40
Carlos Sainz Jr.	40
Kevin Magnussen	40
Felipe Nasr	39
Pascal Wehrlein	21
Jolyon Palmer	20
Rio Haryanto	12
Esteban Ocon	9
Stoffel Vandoorne	1

I would say those who hit the 40-60 starts mark are at the point it can be considered. So roughly 2-3 seasons. 60-100 probably little or no arguments that they are experienced. Those with 100+ starts are clearly experienced and it would be hard to argue otherwise IMHO.

Richard

[Richard C]

It shouldn't be surprising, but regarding my list above. For Vettel and above, all are WDC except for Massa (who almost was).

Richard

[djinvicta]

No one knows really...unless someone on here is Toto or Paddy.
And some of you reckon you are.
Read all the "it must be Wehrlein" posts on here...
Poor bloke must be sat at home tonight thinking "no one really wants me"
So, to all you posters saying it MUST be Wehrlein...definite!!
He will be the last resort.
How sad he must feel.

[jedrinck]

Please not Bottas, he is a solid #2 guy, who wants to see that?

[Wims]

Originally Posted by jedrinck

Please not Bottas, he is a solid #2 guy, who wants to see that?

Yeah, that would be boring. I'd love to see an alpha type personality with exceptional skill instead of having a solid, but unspectacular points scorer

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Joe Saward alluding to a suggestion that Bottas being at Williams in 2017 is in Stroll's contract - being there to lead the team on car set up and development and as a known benchmark for Lance....

Who know's?

For everyone's hand wringing over Bottas moving on and wanting an experienced hand in the other car, have we forgotten Massa drove for them last season? And as for Bottas to allow himself to be pinned to a team for a rich kid to have a chance, that seems like something no driver would want. Maybe as a driver at a major team but for Williams???

It seems like no matter the fan opinion, Pascal's time with MB is done. If he was in their plans he'd be in the seat already and he has to know that by now. MB is willing to buy out Bottas, Sainz or others but not promote their own driver, sounds like there's no chance he's in the factory drive now.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

...And as for Bottas to allow himself to be pinned to a team for a rich kid to have a chance, that seems like something no driver would want. Maybe as a driver at a major team but for Williams???

when you say it like that it makes me sad for Williams and their steady decline over the last 10plus years.

fair point about wehrlein too.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

What makes someone a "Rookie" or maybe even an "Experienced" F1 driver?

I think first, what matters is actual time spent competing. Which to me is in the seat racing and not testing or being a reserve driver. So being part of the scene (IMHO) doesn't count. A classic definition for a rookie is someone participating in their first season. So, I would say Wehrlein was easily a rookie right up until the end of the season. So today he is barely not a rookie. So I have to agree on the "rookie" part of your comment (even if I called him a rookie above), but strongly disagree with the "not even relatively so" part! He may not be a rookie, but he still has that "new rookie" smell!

At what point is someone "Experienced" (which is germane to the discussion about Williams wanting an experienced driver if they were to give up Bottas)? I really wasn't sure how I would decide that myself. Its subjective. But I know which drivers I personally might consider experienced. I decided to look at how many actual race starts the 2016 drivers had (at end of 2016 season and with Wikipedia as source)


I would say those who hit the 40-60 starts mark are at the point it can be considered. So roughly 2-3 seasons. 60-100 probably little or no arguments that they are experienced. Those with 100+ starts are clearly experienced and it would be hard to argue otherwise IMHO.

Richard

Sorry could you repeat that please Richard ?

[wolfhound]

There is one driver who has got very little mention in all of this and that is Grosjean who I believe has a get out clause in his contract (which might be team specific) with Haas.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

He came from DTM to Force India, because it was clear that like every other Mercedes/McLaren development driver, he was going to be left for his career to end in another series whilst the big teams kept hiring big names, rather than giving the young drivers they hired a chance.

Just like others like Green and Paffet, DTM is where single seater careers go to die. A couple may get out, the rest get to be touring car drivers.

DTM is where single seater drivers go when they don't have the cash to carry on in single seaters - get paid to drive and there's the chance of a jump elsewhere in a manufacturers racing portfolio. If you don't have big backers there are worse options than DTM.