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Old 15 Dec 2003, 02:36 (Ref:811889)   #1
JAG
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Hybrid Questions?

If a LMP900 is converted to a hybrid car will it run to the same spec (power, weight, fuel tank, wing etc.) as a new 2004 spec car.

If so Rollcentre etc should get 3 good, competitive years of racing out of the Dallara's if they so wish and the 3 DBA's that we expect to see could also run as hybrid LMP900s as well.

As I understand it the other LMP675s (that have not been homologated as a LMP900 from the start like the DBA) would struggle to be converted to run as a hybrid car, why is this?
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Old 15 Dec 2003, 14:32 (Ref:812218)   #2
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I would guess that they were never meant to take the 900-level engine.

After all, what's the point of becoming a hybrid (900 kg, no exceptions) if you can't fit a big Judd or Elan in it?
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Old 15 Dec 2003, 16:30 (Ref:812294)   #3
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You could bolt anything to anything with the right mounting points or plates the suspensions mounts to the trannies so the tub could bolt to whatever i'm sure-I bet hybrid or 675 vs. 900 chassis ahve slight dimension differences (as i am too lazy to look up the regs.) but are lmp900's and LMP1 exclusive? I thought these were one class- so the hybrid question is with 675's running as 900's in the LMP1 class?
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Old 15 Dec 2003, 18:28 (Ref:812384)   #4
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what are these 3 DBA''s that you are mentioning.....

I know Creation has one but the other 2??
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Old 15 Dec 2003, 18:29 (Ref:812385)   #5
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Unknown at the moment. 2 new cars are being built by Zytek.

Zytek are in discussions with other otential teams as well.
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Old 15 Dec 2003, 20:07 (Ref:812448)   #6
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It is my understanding that what was the DBA (will be known as the Zytek) could be run as a 675 or a 900...some chassis have been designed to work that way....but there might be limits to what engines they can take in the 900 form.....

Look at Mulsanne Mike's listing for it, because I thought I read it there...but that was many, many months ago....
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Old 16 Dec 2003, 00:00 (Ref:812647)   #7
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So, the Reynard02SDBA403S is going to be called Zytek?
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Old 16 Dec 2003, 11:41 (Ref:812983)   #8
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What are people calling a "hybrid" car? A 2003 car running in 2004 (ie, 180 cm wing, 80 L tank)? As I understand it you have 2 options next year. Run a brand new car designed to 2004 regs, or contiune to run your 2003 car (or older chassis) but run with the equalising package of the reduced span rear wing and fuel tank capacity.

I've also heard discussion of "grandfathered" cars. Looking at the ACO rules, nothing is grandfathered perse (meaning it can race "as is"). As I understand it, if you are going to run say a MG, it can still weigh 675 kilos (Art 4.1), but you will have to run the 180 cm wing and 80 L fuel tank and a 40.8 mm restrictor (for a turbocharged 2000 cc engine).

Regarding the DBA, based on the above, there would be no reason at all that you couldn't continue to run it as a LMP675 even though in the case of the DBA you could convert it over to LMP900.

Last edited by MulsanneMike; 16 Dec 2003 at 11:50.
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Old 16 Dec 2003, 13:58 (Ref:813093)   #9
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That's what I thought, too, Mike....

I think it will help all of us if we will start thinking about LMP 900s at "LMP1s" and the existing carbon fiber cars that are 2003 specs as "LMP1s"

The only 2003 specs cars that are LMP2 capable are the Aluminum skinned cars like the Lola B2K/40s, the Lucchinis, or the Pilbeams...

and anything new that is made to strict 2004 specs can be made out of carbon fiber...LMP1 or LMP2...
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Old 16 Dec 2003, 15:24 (Ref:813164)   #10
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what i don't like of the designation of LMP1 and LMP2 is it suggests a lesser class (which it certainly will be) but LMP675 had a chance and was designed as a diferent package to win overall, LMP2 most likely cannot. LMP750 sounds like a different class and may win on virtue of some luck same as GTS, most will never believe in LMP tier2.
LMP1 (alluding to the Northcutt LMP1000 regs ) is a grand title sadly it will relegate any hopefuls and sponsor opportunities for the also rans in LMP2 to a more uphill battle securing cash deals
with the regs and all the goodies wouldn't running an old 675 in lmp1 work rather well? or better than before? i certainly think Dyson lolas will do much better at sebring this years
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Old 16 Dec 2003, 15:38 (Ref:813174)   #11
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Mike, the "hybrid" refers to the ACO ruleset that says pre-2004 (LMP900?) cars converted to LMP1 specs can run through 2006 rather than 2005.
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Old 16 Dec 2003, 16:11 (Ref:813199)   #12
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That whole portion of the regs, as I read them, seemed ratheer vague...

Which specific areas of the car must be "converted" to LMP1 specs???

One is the roll hoops area....

but they start talking about "exceptions" to certain articles in the regs and that's where they lose me....
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Old 16 Dec 2003, 16:33 (Ref:813210)   #13
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My understanding & interpretation :

LMP675 & LMP900 do not exist as of midnight 31st December.

From 1st Jan, both of these classes will be "co-mingled" and run as one (...henceforth known as LMP1). There are new reg's for purpose built LMP1's (ie chassis construction after 31/12/03), but the pre 31/12 built cars will be able to compete against these newly developed cars (..come out, come out wherever you are) provided they are homolgated with 180cm rear wing and 80ltrs fuel tank/bag for 2004.

There is potentially a case for arguing the existence of 2-hybrids. The first being the mixed ("old") 675 & 900's; the second the "old" (ie pre 31/12/03) and "new" (post 31/12/03 build) cars

Theoretically, the 675's should be able to compete directly with a 900. At Le Mans they never really did for any length of time, it will be interesting to see on the short-courses in 2004 during the LMES events. We have little experience of the Lola EX257's here (Europe), but the DBA was highly competitive in the FIASCC races. However, fragility will again come into question over ~6hour races, rather than 3.
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Old 16 Dec 2003, 16:40 (Ref:813213)   #14
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From the LMP1/2 regulations:
Quote:
ART. 19 – “HYBRID” CAR

Cars built before 01/01/2004 in compliance with the 2003 ACO technical regulations for “LM”P and “LM”GTP cars, may be modified in order to comply completely with the present regulations.

The modifications do not concern article 14.1.5 (cockpit opening and volume), 15.4 (headrest and head protection), 16.1 (rollover structures) and 16.2 (survival cell and frontal protection) of the present regulations.

Modifications to the bodywork must :

- Permit to integrate the secondary rollover structure (article 16.1.2. above) ;

- be exclusively designed and made by the manufacturer of the car, who must register with the ACO a detailed technical dossier describing the whole of these modifications.

These “Hybrid” cars will be allowed until 31/12/2006
I see where your confusion lies, Tim - how can they exempt and require at the same time the new rollover protection?

Last edited by paul-collins; 16 Dec 2003 at 16:41.
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Old 17 Dec 2003, 00:34 (Ref:813629)   #15
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Thanks for the info and explanations on this rather confusing area.

My interest in the Hybrid cars has been increased by the fact that Rollcentre and Creation have gone out and purchased 2003 spec Dallara and DBA cars, AFTER the new regs have been anounced.

They are therefore perfectly well aware that in there current spec. they will have 2 years to race, and in the second year (2005) will be restricted to such an extent that any new 2004 spec cars that race in 2005 will very likely win the LMES title.

The teams must therefore either have invested in there cars for just one year, unlikely, or plan to convert there cars to 'hybrids', and race with the benefits of 2004 spec. restrictors/wings etc., competitively in 2005 and also 2006.

It seems strange to me how some fans of the ALMS, on other forums, are saying the ACO basically shafted the LMP teams competing with 2003 spec cars in the ALMS, with the extra restrictions on these cars (particularly in 2005), while European teams are activelly going out purchasing these cars to compete in the LMES/LM as they obviously belive they will have a competitive future for the next 3 years.
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Old 17 Dec 2003, 15:15 (Ref:814134)   #16
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News from "Auto Hebdo": the courage C65 will be an hybrid car next year, certainly like the Pescarolo C60 and the WR
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Old 17 Dec 2003, 16:28 (Ref:814222)   #17
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Originally posted by courage
News from "Auto Hebdo": the courage C65 will be an hybrid car next year, certainly like the Pescarolo C60 and the WR
Stunning news !!!

Still no news from Henri's engine ?

But even, if he's an hybrid car, that means that he will be here !
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Old 17 Dec 2003, 17:37 (Ref:814286)   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by JAG
It seems strange to me how some fans of the ALMS, on other forums, are saying the ACO basically shafted the LMP teams competing with 2003 spec cars in the ALMS, with the extra restrictions on these cars (particularly in 2005), while European teams are activelly going out purchasing these cars to compete in the LMES/LM as they obviously belive they will have a competitive future for the next 3 years.
Ah, but that's not about the rules themselves, is it? It's more about a broken promise (yes you'll be able to run the cars through 2005 in 2003-restricted form - whoops, no you won't). Dyson specifically asked before purchasing the MG-Lolas.

The other possibility is that with a defined ruleset, the cars' market was established and the price came down to where it was worthwhile for Rollcentre to buy the cars for one year as an experiment.

AMT and MulsanneMike have both said that the costs of converting would be prohibitive, and would in effect require new tubs. Are these new tubs forthcoming? The only manufacturer that has offered an upgrade path is Lola for their B2K/40 to B04/40. Does Dallara have a plan? Does Zytek?

Further, I've never had the question answered about whether a car with a new tub constitutes a new car or a hybrid.
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Old 17 Dec 2003, 18:11 (Ref:814315)   #19
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Can someone clear up a point. Does a Hybrid car run to the same regs (wings, restrictors, weight) as a 2004 spec car.
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Old 17 Dec 2003, 19:04 (Ref:814374)   #20
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With regards to requiring new tubs, I don't know if this is actually necessary. In the ACO regs it says something along the lines that the ACO will have disgression with regards to certain requirements such as cockpit dimensions etc. when converting a car into a 'hybrid'. I would assume this would be to get around the requirment for new tubs or any other stumbling block that could delpete the LMP1 grid unessecarily. Any changes however still need to be homologated by the manufactuer of the car.

It looks as though both Courage and Pescarolo will run hybrids. WR and Nasamax, with there Reynard also look like running hybrids. The problem for Dyson with the MG is that to run as a hybrid, you have to run, I belive, at 900KGs to run in LMP1. No Problem for the DBA, but a bigger struggle for the MG. Can a 'hybrid' run in LMP2 also (presumably what the Courage C65 and WR will do). This is no use for Dyson however who want to compete for overall wins.
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Old 17 Dec 2003, 21:03 (Ref:814485)   #21
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An LMP2/ hybrid car must be 750kg, must have a double rollbar(as you can see Fab i now know the word). The car must have a new "under "for the car... no more flat, and a new extractor (bigger). The rear wing will be smaller (25%). In the same time the air intake for the engine will be bigger(44mm).
These infos are from Auto Hebdo and more precisely for the C65.
But I don't understant everything... why will the car have a smaller rear wing and in the same time a bigger intake????
Finally an hybrid car is maybe not so goodbecause aerodynamicaly it's a real "sh..." whereas the power will not be so important (500ch for the JPX next year)
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Old 18 Dec 2003, 06:05 (Ref:814828)   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by courage
An LMP2/ hybrid car must be 750kg, must have a double rollbar(as you can see Fab i now know the word). The car must have a new "under "for the car... no more flat, and a new extractor (bigger). The rear wing will be smaller (25%). In the same time the air intake for the engine will be bigger(44mm).
These infos are from Auto Hebdo and more precisely for the C65.
But I don't understant everything... why will the car have a smaller rear wing and in the same time a bigger intake????
Finally an hybrid car is maybe not so goodbecause aerodynamicaly it's a real "sh..." whereas the power will not be so important (500ch for the JPX next year)
Well, I think those news are quite good : the power seems not lowering anymore (500 hp seems quite good, regarding some of the LMP900 last years), and with clever solution, Courage courld cope with the smaller rearwing. At least, the best of the LMP2 could match the GTS again (I hope !).

Well spotted, courage ! Keep on the good job with french papers !
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Old 18 Dec 2003, 14:52 (Ref:815224)   #23
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Jag, it's not ACO who says "new tubs required," it's Lola (and by inference, AMT and MulsanneMike). Not a regulation issue, but a practical one.

The larger intake is due to it running 2004-level restrictors.

The smaller wing is also 2004 regulations:

Old wing - up to 200 cm wide (now 180), 40x15cm depth x height
New wing - up to body width, 30x15cm (max body width is 200 cm) I don't know if the relevant body width is "maximum" or "local".

Note - the Audi R8 had a 200cm wing, with bodywork with max width 198 cm, but there was a taper - enough that the endplate extensions of the wing were some 5+ cm out from the tail bodywork.
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Old 18 Dec 2003, 22:15 (Ref:815589)   #24
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That last post answered a big question for me....

If new wing, as Mike said in the "2004 regs released" thread, would have to come in 10 cm (I'm assuming on each side) and those endplate extansions mounted at the bottom of the rear fender are 5cm, then their extened endplats will ahve to be mounted on the top plane of the fender....

Thier "solution" to this dilemma will be...as Mike said in that thread..."Very Interesting" indeed....
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Old 18 Dec 2003, 22:19 (Ref:815599)   #25
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Tim, don't read my 5cm too closely. I simply eyeballed it. (Picture on Mike's site)

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