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Old 28 Sep 2011, 03:43 (Ref:2961991)   #26
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Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool View Post
Plus it's very easy for Vettel to look good this year as per Race craft, when you're starting most race's with a clear track in front of you. Look at the amount of collisions Vettel had in previous 2 years when he had more of a challenge from Mark Webber and others.
Easy ? Is it about F1 you're talking ? I should watch more of it then...

And yes we did see what he did when he had a challenge in front of him at Monza.

I always thought that the guy who's in front is the one that wins, and winning is what matters in F1... I must be wrong.
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 04:50 (Ref:2961998)   #27
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For 99% of the Singapore race he was driving like one.
In isolation I would agree... But it's getting awfully repetitive now.

It doesn't matter if 99% of the time you are driving like an immortal if that other 1% of the time is preventing you from reaching your maximum result - and it happens on a frequent basis.

Please don't misinterpret this as a bash on Hamilton... It's not in the slightest.

It's more about the concept outlined at the start of the thread that Hamilton is uncontrollably in the wrong place at the wrong time - as if the universe has spelled out his fate and Lewis has no control over these situations... Please.
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 05:20 (Ref:2962003)   #28
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Digressing slightly, what happened to the yellow/red card system?
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 12:09 (Ref:2962141)   #29
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If we are going to have to continue to talk about how good a race Hamilton is having because of all the exciting overtaking that he's doing, then it's also possible that we won't be talking about how easy it will be for him to become a multiple WDC.

He had a particularly poor start in Singapore, where, hopefully, memories of what happened in Canada stopped him from going down the inside of Webber. But his frustration begins from then on.

Personally, I think that it's the current F1 cars that don't suit his style. Maybe overtaking just got too easy? But he certainly needed the DRS in Singapore. It seems to help the ones that need it. Typically the ones in a fast car that's out of position.
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 13:11 (Ref:2962160)   #30
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If we are going to have to continue to talk about how good a race Hamilton is having because of all the exciting overtaking that he's doing, then it's also possible that we won't be talking about how easy it will be for him to become a multiple WDC.
And herein lies the problem (imo). I get the impression that he felt that all he'd have to do is show up and job done, 3 or 4 times WDC. But it's his opponents that more than likely to achieve that. After all, who'd bet against Seb becoming a 3 time WDC before Lewis gets his 2nd?
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 13:49 (Ref:2962166)   #31
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Send the boy to NASCAR for a year; that would sort out his arrogance in relation to his fellow competitors' right to occupy their own space on the race track. Somewhat ironic that it was Tony Stewart's Chevy that he drove earlier this year; of all people, Smoke could teach him the error of his ways.
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 14:37 (Ref:2962175)   #32
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...
Massa has always struck me as being the cry baby type and still has a massive grudge about losing the 2008 Championship in the last race
....
Massa have always struck me as one of the most fair drivers in the field. Actually, I take that back, I would say that he is THE single most fair driver in the field. He never does anything remotely dirty, he is always fair and if there's a chance that he might ruin somebodys race by making a move then he would always abort that move and take the penalty like a man. He's never outspoken against his fellow drivers unless there's a fair reason for it.

I never got the feeling that he has a grudge. Perhaps I have been looking for the wrong things.
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 15:20 (Ref:2962191)   #33
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Massa has always struck me as being the cry baby type and still has a massive grudge about losing the 2008 Championship in the last race.
i feel sorry for massa, and he shouldn't have lost his temper in such an unprofessional way. rather than a cry baby, i think he's in a really tough situation. not only is he repeatedly the victim of lewis' mistakes and misjudgements (and iirc, others too), he's also not the same driver he used to be for whatever reason. so he's got a third party action interfering with his driving as well as a change in his own driving capabilities. if you have one or other getting in the way of your performance on track it's much simpler to reason with and accept or set about changing, but with both at once it's a real challenge.

if you then add to the mix that he's now a father, and he's had a life-threatening incident you can see why he's so conflicted. well, i can anyway. he's got reasons to question whether it's worth it, even if they're absolutely only part of his subconsious decisionmaking and not "well, i've got to think of my family" type factors.
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 18:28 (Ref:2962244)   #34
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Another wrong place/wrong time example as there were 60,000 there the day before

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/60117.html
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 22:16 (Ref:2962315)   #35
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And yes we did see what he did when he had a challenge in front of him at Monza.
Well that's a brilliant example, he had to overtake 1 single person to regain 1st place.
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 22:27 (Ref:2962319)   #36
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He's never outspoken against his fellow drivers unless there's a fair reason for it.
Oh there are so many examples...like the way he cried about Bourdais trying to overtake him at the 2008 Japanese GP and the outrageous way Bourdais was penalized whereas most pundits were expecting Massa to get sanctioned.
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 22:49 (Ref:2962326)   #37
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Well that's a brilliant example, he had to overtake 1 single person to regain 1st place.
Tell us more !
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 23:12 (Ref:2962330)   #38
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Well that's a brilliant example, he had to overtake 1 single person to regain 1st place.
Did it rather convincingly too, without touching the other car and going slightly off track.
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Old 28 Sep 2011, 23:33 (Ref:2962337)   #39
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Massa have always struck me as one of the most fair drivers in the field. Actually, I take that back, I would say that he is THE single most fair driver in the field. He never does anything remotely dirty, he is always fair and if there's a chance that he might ruin somebodys race by making a move then he would always abort that move and take the penalty like a man. He's never outspoken against his fellow drivers unless there's a fair reason for it.

I never got the feeling that he has a grudge. Perhaps I have been looking for the wrong things.
Massa needs to harden up and take a leaf out of the Senna playbook.

"Now he knows not to try that again!"

Respect has to be mutual, and apparently Hamilton sees Massa as a motox berm for assistance going round a corner.

Calling Massa's behaviour in Singapore unprofessional is a bit steep Bella,
or did you mean a pat on the back was an inappropriate reponse for what should have been a good smack over the head?
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Old 29 Sep 2011, 02:02 (Ref:2962360)   #40
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It's all about pressure, in 2007 he had none realisticly, in 2011 it's heaped upon him, he has Vettel who is better than him, doing a better job and he has Button, who shouldn't be doing better than him, but is.

As for innocence, can anyone honestly blame Felipe of sundays coimng together ??
Yes, you make a good point. Sadly, Lewis did not see Vettel on the horizon as a main competitor. He should of, after Monza 2008. With Sebastian so young and already setting records - it has clearly upset Lewis' applecart. As was mentioned elsewhere - after 2008, Lewis was expecting to pick up the a few more WDCs with relative ease. Even for allowing his former nemesis at McLaren(Alonso).

To Lewis' credit he has mentioned how well Jenson has been driving. See this :-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/for...-superior.html


If Jenson can take the number 2 spot in the WDC, or keep above Lewis, it will make his position look difficult.
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Old 29 Sep 2011, 02:45 (Ref:2962370)   #41
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Personally, I think Lewis's problem is three fold. Firstly, he was Ron Dennis's protégé, with the team and comfort zone built around Lewis and with this he successfully saw of Alonso.

However, Button has begun to errode this. Button took a back seat last year, being the new boy but showed he was a pretty good tactition with the tyres. This year, though I felt he was stymied by McLaren's race strategy earlier in the season, he has shown he can call the shots particularly on those tyre stops and with choice of tyre. This coupled with his smoother driving style has worked out well for him and I think this has rattled Lewis, while his natural, more aggressive style is not paying off, adding to his woes.

Secondly I think Lewis has been at McLaren too long; a consequence of the comfort zone and team being built around him. The trouble is what other top team will take him? So far they all seem happy with their choices of driver; though we all know this can change at the drop of a hat, but with the incidents he has been involved in this season I don't think will enamour many teams right now.

Thirdly I think his father's influence is missed. It's all very well being managed by some pop music promotion company but pop music's not motor racing.
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Old 29 Sep 2011, 05:47 (Ref:2962397)   #42
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Thirdly I think his father's influence is missed. It's all very well being managed by some pop music promotion company but pop music's not motor racing.
This is the crux of it. He's being groomed for stardom rather than being trained for professionalism. Form over substance if you will. All of the talking he does now appears to be scripted.

His driving is IMO suffering simply because he is being made to look at himself as a personality rather than a racing driver.
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Old 29 Sep 2011, 11:18 (Ref:2962485)   #43
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This is the crux of it. He's being groomed for stardom rather than being trained for professionalism. Form over substance if you will. All of the talking he does now appears to be scripted.

His driving is IMO suffering simply because he is being made to look at himself as a personality rather than a racing driver.
I think thats a pretty fair assessment tbh.
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Old 29 Sep 2011, 11:45 (Ref:2962494)   #44
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I think thats a pretty fair assessment tbh.
I agree, I think Peter has hit the nail firmly on the head there regarding the effect of Lewis' management choice...
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Old 29 Sep 2011, 11:48 (Ref:2962495)   #45
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Calling Massa's behaviour in Singapore unprofessional is a bit steep Bella, or did you mean a pat on the back was an inappropriate reponse for what should have been a good smack over the head?
it's unprofessional and inappropriate to interrupt someone elses tv interview - which could have been live - to make a point. which in the end made him look like he couldn't control his impulses. which in turn, makes him no better than lewis. lewis was the grown-up in the situation, he withdrew from the situation and sent himself to his room until he was able to handle himself with decorum. which is what felipe could have done with doing. i'm all for a bit of personality and stepping outside the box, but that was plain daft.

if a driver is going to take the moral highground, he at least should *try* and do it properly!
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Old 29 Sep 2011, 12:05 (Ref:2962504)   #46
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it's unprofessional and inappropriate to interrupt someone elses tv interview - which could have been live - to make a point. which in the end made him look like he couldn't control his impulses. which in turn, makes him no better than lewis. lewis was the grown-up in the situation, he withdrew from the situation and sent himself to his room until he was able to handle himself with decorum. which is what felipe could have done with doing. i'm all for a bit of personality and stepping outside the box, but that was plain daft.

if a driver is going to take the moral highground, he at least should *try* and do it properly!
Why should Felipe respect Lewis' TV interview when Lewis clearly doesn't respect Massa at all.
Good to see Felipe is still passionate about his racing, and you can't say that he hasn't been severely provoked.
Best he teaches Lewis respect the hardway, preferably when Lewis expects to get a decent result! With the debit column Lewis is working up I don't think he will be getting another WDC anytime soon, what goes around comes around - good luck mate!
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Old 29 Sep 2011, 15:26 (Ref:2962569)   #47
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it's unprofessional and inappropriate to interrupt someone elses tv interview - which could have been live - to make a point. which in the end made him look like he couldn't control his impulses. which in turn, makes him no better than lewis. lewis was the grown-up in the situation, he withdrew from the situation and sent himself to his room until he was able to handle himself with decorum. which is what felipe could have done with doing. i'm all for a bit of personality and stepping outside the box, but that was plain daft.

if a driver is going to take the moral highground, he at least should *try* and do it properly!
You make it sound like Massa went up to Hamilton, told him to **** off and punched him in the face. He tapped on the shoulder said something sarcastic and walked off, big deal. Drivers are always playing around with each other during the interviews as its the first time they see each other after the race.
I don't think there was any moral highground involved, I think Massa was simply annoyed with Hamilton's driving. I'm not even sure why we're making such a big fuss out of it, if it ended up in a fight then fair enough but it was just the usual sort of banter you'd find on the rugby or football feild after someone does something stupid or inept.
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Old 29 Sep 2011, 15:52 (Ref:2962573)   #48
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It's certainly no more unprofessional than doing it in the paddock, where the cameras will be watching in any case. If Massa is to be believed, he supposedly tried to talk to Hamilton before this "incident", but Hamilton ignored him. So...

I'm not sure about his father's influence. He had some rough patches in 2008 and 2009 when his father was still his manager (at least I think he still was in 2009). For example, crashing in the pitlane in Canada, and then getting himself a penalty in the next race for gaining an obvious advantage by cutting across a chicane while overtaking. 2009, there was the whole mess with lying about the Trulli incident in the first race. Unfortunately, I think it is just part of his character. But for the first half of the 2007 season, his driving has been littered with mistakes. He made quite a few in GP2 in 2006 as well. He makes more mistakes a season than the likes of Schumacher and Alonso do/did, and I'm sure if he was capable of limiting them then he would have done so by now.

If Hamilton hadn't made such a brilliant start to his F1 career (which I think made him look better than he actually is, as his driving has been inconsistent ever since) then I doubt we would all be questioning him so much. I just hope that behind the scenes, McLaren are trying to help him rather than insist he doesn't need to change. He has to. If he doesn't, he won't win another championship.
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Old 29 Sep 2011, 15:54 (Ref:2962575)   #49
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You make it sound like Massa went up to Hamilton, told him to **** off and punched him in the face. He tapped on the shoulder said something sarcastic and walked off, big deal. Drivers are always playing around with each other during the interviews as its the first time they see each other after the race.
I don't think there was any moral highground involved, I think Massa was simply annoyed with Hamilton's driving. I'm not even sure why we're making such a big fuss out of it, if it ended up in a fight then fair enough but it was just the usual sort of banter you'd find on the rugby or football feild after someone does something stupid or inept.
Also, generally we moan about how the drivers lack any personality, and everyone is too nice/not opinionated enough. When someone actually shows some emotion, it is frowned upon! And Massa did genuinely have something to be annoyed about, rather than it being a show for the cameras (Hamilton in Monaco this year, I wonder if he'd have done that with his dad around?).
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Old 30 Sep 2011, 09:13 (Ref:2962855)   #50
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Certainly, particularly where Vettel and Red Bull are concerned, Hamilton is always in the wrong place at the wrong time. But they're fine with that.

There would also have been a time when Webber would not have moved across on Hamilton at the start of a GP. He would usually have known that here was a driver that was coming through, no matter what. But now he knows better. And that's the difference between getting through to 3rd place or being pushed back to 8th.
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