Felipe Massa & Mark Webber

[Dan Fielden]

Where to start with these two.

Where do we see these guys in the future. As it stands i feel webber hasn't been the same since his so close yet so far season in 2010. Its not uncommon to see teammates occasionally be far apart in terms of performance on the odd weekend but it seems to be happening with these pair, particularly massa.

I kno webber is the only other guy to take pole so far this season and has contributed to the probable victory of red-bull in constructors but i can't help feel a Rosberg, Sutil or a Kobayashi could have performed better. I now see Webber (as im sure Horner does) as a clear number 2 whereas last year there was little between he and Vettel.

Massa is a sad story really. He was so fast in 06 & in particular 08 but after his accident he's just looked off the pace. He always seems to be floating around P6, 7 & 8 and that is by vertue of the fact he's driving a works ferrari. I never get the impression he's striving for more pace, he never looks as though he's pushing and 9 times out of 10 when he's on screen in a battle he's defending or being overtaken. His recent outbursts at hamilton and clear frustration after yet another poor performance (admitadly not aided by Hamilton in cases) suggests to me he knows his tenure at Ferrari may not last much longer than next season. (in steps Perez, Bianchi to Sauber)

Your thoughts

[crmalcolm]

I can't see either of these drivers moving elsewhere and achieving anything more than Kovaleinen or Trulli are right now.
So, I presume they would stay where they are. Which leaves them as a definite No.2 driver for the following reason:

If either Alonso or Vettel want next years car and beyond to have a certain characteristic (loose rear, slight understeer etc.) the design is more likely to be tailored to their liking than Webber or Massa. This leaves them driving a car that has been setup to favour their teammate, and so they are in a support role.

The only potential for either would be a move to Renault or Mercedes, but how many people would risk giving up their seat in one of the top three cars?

[steve_r]

Both are unfotunate to be paired with team mates who are double WDC's. If asked to name the three fastest drivers in F1 at this moment in time, pretty much any F1 fan would name both Alonso and Vettel plus one other.

Barring injury to their team-mates, I do not think either driver will go on to pick up the WDC.

I think there would be plenty of seats available to either of these drivers if they did get released by Red Bull / Ferrari. Unfortunately, those seats would be unlikely to include the current top 3 teams, with Mercedes being the best either could hope for (IMO). Renault may also have space, but seem to be a team in decline.

So, in short both drivers have had their chance at the WDC and missed out. Barring any unexpected circumstances, I can not see either of them being more than the rear-gunner for their team-mates. Obviously every dog has it's day, and race wins are still possible given the machinery they are driving.

[paddy]

The trouble is that they are in competitive cars that another driver could do well in. Both are past their best and I'd like to see up and coming drivers in both seats or even a top driver who could get the best out of the car.

[herowassenna]

Personally I have never rated Massa, just another shoe-in after Rubens. Good number 2's but thats it. Massa had a great 2008 season but he's never been what you would call an aggressive driver, except when defending against Alonso in the past. I honestly can't see what team would choose him anymore.
Also, what irritates to this day, the public really don't want to see the honest truth, Alonso is one of the Greats. Why would Massa be able to beat him?

Same applies for Webber. He's just unlucky that Vettel is in the other car, because he is a great too. No matter what you want to say about his over-taking or he hasn't been tested yet, Webber against Coulthard was a no contest. To qualify that, Coulthard against Hakkinen was a no contest.

On their day, they are capable winners, but I think Webber, for all his Aussie grit, needs to feel wanted by the team. Red Bull have systematically removed that since Turkey last year.

I believe Webber has said he will retire once he leaves Red Bull, realistic because he'd be unlikely to get a race winning car again. Massa, i suppose it depends on the Todts connections...

[JeremySmith]

Not everyone can be Mozart, it's just not possible...

[Marbot]

I would reply to that, only I'm trying to finish my Requiem.

[Bononi]

Well, those two are very popular guys around subjects in this forum.

One thing for certain, they are both honest and good characters, unlike some considered greats, that are crooks and blackmailers, but then again that doesn't count when you're racing at the end of day.

I think that both should leave by 2013 and enjoy their retirements, life is too short to be wasted on such futile enviroment.

We all love F1 and Wrestling !

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Well, those two are very popular guys around subjects in this forum.

One thing for certain, they are both honest and good characters, unlike some considered greats, that are crooks and blackmailers, but then again that doesn't count when you're racing at the end of day.

I think that both should leave by 2013 and enjoy their retirements, life is too short to be wasted on such futile enviroment.

We all love F1 and Wrestling !

Yes wrestling with women, I am sorry I must be in the wrong forum..

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Yes wrestling with women, I am sorry I must be in the wrong forum..

So wrong...

[stripedcat]

They are both - sorry to say this - number two drivers. Felipe hasn't been the same since the accident at Hungary 2009. A shame as he was so quick, before that at Ferrari. He certainly seemed very determined in his title push in 2008. Having Alonso as a teammate can't be easy. I agree, that I think Alonso is probably the best all rounder of the current F1 drivers. He has demonstrated that he can build a team around him(the McLaren escapade not withstanding) and has a high degree of intelligence. I know Massa is angry with Hamilton, and he has some right to be(I think that at both Monaco and Singapore, Lewis was out of order), but if he gets into a feud with him it won't help his situation.

Webber is in the same position. A shame as well. Last year, he produced some excellent drives(Monaco, Silverstone, Hungary). This year, he was blown away by Vettel. Plus, the fact that Vettel is so young and he looks like he is going to break Schumi's old records now. I suspect that he will probably stay with Red Bull for two more years, then retire. He knows that 2010 was his last chance to take the WDC.

[Marbot]

Both of them must have been hindered by the rather nasty accidents that they suffered.

Massa, in particular, had to not only deal with his accident, but also had to be told that his new team mate was going to be Fernando Alonso whilst still recovering in hospital. Double trouble!

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Marbot

also had to be told that his new team mate was going to be Fernando Alonso whilst still recovering in hospital. Double trouble!

LOL!!!

One thing I hope doesn't happen this year, is that Vettel gifts a win to Webber. It always used to wind me up when Schumacher gifted wins to Barrichello.
The best reaction to being told to gift a race was Senna gifting a win to Berger. He made it blatantly obvious he wasn't happy, and they were great friends...

[Jacques Rabbit]

I suppose if anything really bothers me about F1, it's that outside of McLaren (now, not so much with Heikki), teammates just aren't very evenly matched. Whether it's a deliberate hiring of drivers with uneven abilities, or a clear definition of number two status, or simply giving the other guy less updates or a worse car, or just developing the car around one guy. It would be great to see them challenge each other...

...but I know deep down that whoever replaces Webber or Massa down the road won't challenge. There will always be some reason for them not to. Bit of a shame, but the nature of the sport, I guess. So they're both replaceable. But I'm not sure that's purely on their abilities, though Massa may admittedly have lost a lot after 2009. You're never 100% again after a head injury.

[chillibowl]

the question i have for people who want Massa out is where do you think the second driver of the third best team should be in the standings?

in 6th place?

well thats exactly where he is. with the exception of a few races where he was involved in incidents (without discussing blame) he would have this spot all but locked up.

honestly any other driver (who doesn't already have a better seat) would be at best in the same spot in the standings as Massa is now.

Webber on the other hand is the second driver in the best car and is in 4th...and considering who is ahead of him i cant even find much fault in that.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

LOL!!!

One thing I hope doesn't happen this year, is that Vettel gifts a win to Webber. ...

Mark has to be directly behind Seb for that to happen, which seem's highly unlikely!!

[Paradise City]

I think Webber possesses the most incredible racecraft yet he isn't fastest which lets him down. He's also politically been dealt a shoddy hand within RBR.

I was never signed up to the Massa thing. He always seemed to me to be a 21st century deCesaris figure. Ligntning fast in bursts but erratic and fragile.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I think Webber possesses the most incredible racecraft yet he isn't fastest which lets him down. He's also politically been dealt a shoddy hand within RBR.

I was never signed up to the Massa thing. He always seemed to me to be a 21st century deCesaris figure. Ligntning fast in bursts but erratic and fragile.

I like that, it's the truth...

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

He's also politically been dealt a shoddy hand within RBR.

I bet he's crying all the way to the bank

Say what you want about the way that RBR have treated him, but don't forget that had he, (not the team) managed to keep it on the track in Korea last season, then maybe he'd have been champion? Even after that, he wasn't fast enough to beat Vettel and win the title, which is exactly what Seb did.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I bet he's crying all the way to the bank

Say what you want about the way that RBR have treated him, but don't forget that had he, (not the team) managed to keep it on the track in Korea last season, then maybe he'd have been champion? Even after that, he wasn't fast enough to beat Vettel and win the title, which is exactly what Seb did.

Exactly!

Their treatment is absolutely equal.

Sadly Mark isn't as quick as Seb!

[spider]

Isn't Massa Snr a very very wealthy guy? I'm sure I've heard that.

Though it would never be announced, but perhaps that's why Felipe's there too...yes, I'm sure he gets a Salary through Ferrari payroll, but if Massa Snr is as wealthy as I believe, then money could be coming in from him to help pay for his son...

...that would at least make sense then.

Felipe isn't particularly quick, and if they want someone to be a clear number 2 to Fernando there are better options. But, if he's helping to pump money in, and still be reasonably competitive, then it suddenly makes sense.

I know Todt's his Manager, but if we look at it from a pure performance point of view, retaining Massa makes little sense.

[bella]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

LOL!!!

One thing I hope doesn't happen this year, is that Vettel gifts a win to Webber. It always used to wind me up when Schumacher gifted wins to Barrichello.
The best reaction to being told to gift a race was Senna gifting a win to Berger. He made it blatantly obvious he wasn't happy, and they were great friends...

this would never happen with vettel (my hat's at the ready to be eaten, mind). it's a display of power and dominance, and one that vettel has no desire or motivation to do. he doesn't need to be champion in the same sense that schumacher did, nor in the same way that senna did, and that sort of dominance isn't a part of his game plan.

in my opinion anyway.

a thought - these two drivers are mentioned in the same topic to be discussed in the same way, but are they interchangeable? could you swap massa and webber around in their teams? what would be the result?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by bella

this would never happen with vettel (my hat's at the ready to be eaten, mind). it's a display of power and dominance, and one that vettel has no desire or motivation to do. he doesn't need to be champion in the same sense that schumacher did, nor in the same way that senna did, and that sort of dominance isn't a part of his game plan.

in my opinion anyway.

I agree. I did wonder a few weeks back if maybe Seb would "gift" Mark a win, but immediately dismissed it. If Seb were to win the remaining 4 races, that would give him 13 wins, which would equal Michaels most wins in one season. I'm sure that gives Seb more motivation than pulling over for Mark. The same way that i'm sure he'll be trying to beat Mansell's record of 14 poles in a season!

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I agree. I did wonder a few weeks back if maybe Seb would "gift" Mark a win, but immediately dismissed it. If Seb were to win the remaining 4 races, that would give him 13 wins, which would equal Michaels most wins in one season. I'm sure that gives Seb more motivation than pulling over for Mark. The same way that i'm sure he'll be trying to beat Mansell's record of 14 poles in a season!

Did drivers actually are aware of those records (maybe someone does this for them) or the press that gives them the hint about doing it, or are we just guessing... anyway, I don't think they care too much, in a short, all they want is simply make every pole and win every race possible and period.

[gttouring]

Originally Posted by spider

Isn't Massa Snr a very very wealthy guy? I'm sure I've heard that.

Though it would never be announced, but perhaps that's why Felipe's there too...yes, I'm sure he gets a Salary through Ferrari payroll, but if Massa Snr is as wealthy as I believe, then money could be coming in from him to help pay for his son...

...that would at least make sense then.

Felipe isn't particularly quick, and if they want someone to be a clear number 2 to Fernando there are better options. But, if he's helping to pump money in, and still be reasonably competitive, then it suddenly makes sense.

I know Todt's his Manager, but if we look at it from a pure performance point of view, retaining Massa makes little sense.

Massa was quick and still is but post accident has shown thedamage. As far as massa Snr buying massa's way through sport, well allrich kids get a boost but fast kids like massa stay and go to F1 remember he got the fastest la at fiorano when he was testing in schumi car ...faster than Michael at his track was a big deal to solidify his talent standings at maranello.
I think he has been dulled by the accident which is dreadfully sad.
Webber isstill good but being#2 and there is always a number 2, hurts him a bit mentally. Especially the year after he wrecked out of the championship and he was now support. Webber can get vettels support if Webber strikes first and keeps points up- vettel seems like that kind of racer.
For comparison hamilton gets deranged and makes mistakes when button ha s shown his cool and points collection.