Briatore: Vettel good, but not the best

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Fair or unfair, it's only then he'll acquire the reputation that Schumacher has if you take Schumacher at the peak of his powers as comparison.

Schumacher never won a championship in anything less than the best car.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Schumacher never won a championship in anything less than the best car.

94 definitely and 95 ?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by wnut

Plus

"Besides, Whitmarsh just said in an interview with one of the major German newspapers that McLaren would have beaten Red Bull without Vettel. Seems to be a different take to me." - Kempi

Vettel would be WDC whether he was at McLaren or RBR!

No I don't think so.
If Vettel and Button been in opposite places Button would beat Vettel to the WDC, as would Alonso had Seb and Fernando swapped seats.
There is very little between all the top five or six drivers.
Racing is a head game and with victory comes confidence. Seb came from behind last year by upping his game over the last three or four races. Winning the WDC from behind gave him a huge psychological boost that has gone on feeding him because he has continued to get the results. Vettel is at the top of his present game but that doesn't mean he can't get better.

Massa Webber and Hamilton are all struggling with confidence because they have had resuts in the past but aren't coping so well this year.
Mark is up against Seb so has a direct marker with the man of the moment but Seb has upped his game and Mark has struggled to match it.
Massa has gone from nearly a title in 2008 through a head injury and last years German GP debacle and is struggling to match Fernando who has flogged his team from him. He had no trouble meeting Kimi's challenge in earlier years before Hungary.
Hamilton has always had good cars and has the ability no question. However some self doubt may be knocking at the door as a result of some of his results and some consequent over driving hasn't helped.
Button has coped better with a tricky car because he had years of dud cars with Honda and probably has far more emotional resilience than Lewis, and knows how to quietly plug away till he gets what he wants from the car. His first victory was in poor/mixed conditions so he has confidence in his ability to get the most out of those situations. He attacks the problems more maturely than Lewis who if things aren't going well has lunges of desperation from time to time.

Hamilton will come right and lose none of his speed, but he still has things to learn, things Button has learnt through a far longer apprenticeship.

[Razzzor]

Let's say Vettel was driving for McLaren this year with Button and Hamilton, do you guys think he'd still be champion? (assuming Red Bull only have 1 car for Webber and McLaren field 3 cars). I personally have no doubts he'd still be champion - not as dominant, but with his qualifying performances he'd be ahead of Button and Hamilton in points.

If he were in the Ferrari things might be different; I think Alonso's really gotten the absolute best out of the Ferrari. Sure Vettel would have out-qualified him many times, but they'd be beaten by Button/Hamilton. Alonso's done well to be third in points - if Webber and Hamilton weren't having off-years, they'd both be ahead.

[Born Racer]

I don't think he'd be champion, partly because the McLaren hasn't quite been quick enough and also because that may assume a driver like Hamilton in a Red Bull.

[stripedcat]

Originally Posted by wnut

94 definitely and 95 ?

You could probably put down 2000 as well. The McLaren was overall the faster car that year, but had a lot of reliability issues at the start of the year. The Ferrari was probably the second fastest car that year, overall.

It is just Briatore sounding off again. Probably trying to big up Alonso. No that I think Alonso is a bad driver, far from it. I think he is still probably the best all rounder in F1. I agree with Briatore on one thing, that is Vettel has the edge of the rest of the grid in qualifying. After the all the "He can't overtake" quotes - well take a look at his move on Button in Melbourne or his amasing move on Alonso in Monza.

Sebastian has improved so much this year. He has really upped his game. It will be interesting to see if he can get a third WDC. If he can, then maybe Briatore will be faced to eat his words. Remember some certain other comments about Red Bull and Vettel? "Just a soft drinks' company!" and the now classic : "The new Mansell!" .

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I don't think he'd be champion, partly because the McLaren hasn't quite been quick enough and also because that may assume a driver like Hamilton in a Red Bull.

"Besides, Whitmarsh just said in an interview with one of the major German newspapers that McLaren would have beaten Red Bull without Vettel. Seems to be a different take to me." - Kempi


The point was that Whitmarsh suggested that McLaren was the better car and Vettel made the difference. Hence if Vettel was at McLaren with the better car he would still be WDC.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Schumacher never won a championship in anything less than the best car.

That's just nonsense.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by thunderbolt

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/173944/..._the_best.html


i see Briatore puts cheats and liers ahead of vettel

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Whatever you may think of him, he's probably right on this. If Murdoch said the same, it wouldn't make him wrong.

I thought that. I don't get the random liars and reference comment. Is the thought that he is just being petty and vindictive?

I think quite a few people would agree with his ranking.

I suspect that Flav. was just asked the question.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by garcon

That's just nonsense.

Really? Most people say that the '94 Benetton, yet he beat Senna comfortably in a Williams in those 2 races. The 1995 Benny had the better chassis, plus a Renault engine, the same as the Williams, then he had the Ferrari which never broke down, so point to me where he had a lesser car!

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Really? Most people say that the '94 Benetton, yet he beat Senna comfortably in a Williams in those 2 races. The 1995 Benny had the better chassis, plus a Renault engine, the same as the Williams, then he had the Ferrari which never broke down, so point to me where he had a lesser car!

The 94 Benetton was better than the Williams, ignoring the fact of dubious traction control issues, the FIA found much the same software hidden in Mclaren's code too, Irvine was quoted at the Brazilian GP that Senna was driving a bucking bronco through the race, twitching so much he couldn't believe how he kept it on the track. Yet Schumacher's Benetton was described like a carpet ride.
The 95 Benetton chassis wasn't in the same league as the Williams, but the Williams had an atrocious reliability record that year.
The 2000 Ferrari was more reliable than the Mclaren but I believe the Macca was the faster machine.

No driver has won a championship without having a top 2 or 3 car, but they don't have to necessarily have to have the best.

Incidentally, is Vettel seen as a better driver than Hakkinen, I'm not asking regarding his potential, I'm asking because at this stage he's a double WDC in a car that is simply the class of the field.
Hakkinen to my mind didn't prove worthy of being in a select group of 2 consecutive WDC as he proved nothing in any other car, whereas I believe Vettel is. Or are people not giving him due credit, because although he won in 2010, if circumstances had fallen differently, ie Ferrari's strategy, he would have just won his first WDC this year. After all, the first time he led the championship was in Abu Dhabi?

[stripedcat]

I think you could say that the Benetton of 1994 was overall the second fastest car. Once the Williams had tweaked the rear end problem, they had the fastest car.

In 1995, remember that the Benetton was seen as inferior to the Williams. Not that it was a bad car, but just not as quick as the Williams.

In fact for pretty much of Schumi's career he didn't have the fastest car. I think you could only really say from the 2001 season onwards that he had the best car. Although, I agree that he does seem to have a very low number of mechanical failures(in both the Ferrari and Benetton).

[Born Racer]

Well, he was 'officially' the best today and that's all he needs to be.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Well, he was 'officially' the best today and that's all he needs to be.

Who ? Vettel ? I agree completely.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

Incidentally, is Vettel seen as a better driver than Hakkinen?

I personally, think that there is little doubt about that.

[chunterer]

OT still for a mo...

94 Benetton was better than the Williams for most of the season.
95 Williams was better than 95 Bentton but didn't have 2 clever enough drivers in it.

Schu only really faced Hakkinen as a threat during 98-2000. The McLaren was generally the quickest car in all 3 of those seasons.

However Hakkinen took a long time to realise his massive potential and had to put up with poor equipment for 3 or 4 years. Anyone that suggests he wasn't deserving of those 2 titles (so nearly could've had a hat trick...) is mad!

On topic:

Alonso is the best, Vettel is now a clear second and very close to Alonso's level.

Hamilton has dropped off and I although he will always be one of the fastest drivers in F1 I really wonder if he can regain his composure and the arrogance required to mix it with these guys in a title tilt. Button had brilliantly exploited this to ensure his backing from the team and I think he will have the upper hand again over next season.

Webber didn't get on with the tyres this year but I doubt very much he's any slower than last year and I also doubt whether Vettel has really improved as much as people suggest. The team made it clear who was going to be getting the limelight this year and that wasn't Webber!

Overall though Vettel has done what he needs to to carve out number one status he is a legend in the making. Mark's (good quality F1 driver as he is) time has passed and whilst he can carry on being a quick driver it will never be to the degree we saw in 09-10.

General rule applies though, all the current drivers are good but only a few ever get to show whether they can win races and titles if they get the right drives at the right time.

[Bononi]

I would agree with all, but I see a driver with his career in a downhill, slowly but steady. Time will tell.

Thanks for getting back on topic chuntz ! It was getting a little tedious, as usual when...

[Paradise City]

Who cares if Schumacher won the championship? Much of Schumacher at his peak was in years where he didn't win the championship.

Personally I'm more inspired by a fighter than someone who, more or less, sails home every weekend. Schumacher spent years fighting and confirming his reputation as a fighter before the years when he spent sailing it home in first. I'd like to see more of Vettel the warrior in the years ahead.

So there you go Newey. The challenge is out there. Go build him a dog next year and lets see how Vettel really ticks.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

So there you go Newey. The challenge is out there. Go build him a dog next year and lets see how Vettel really ticks.

Maybe they should give him Webber's car?

If you want to watch 'fighting', there's always WWF.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Maybe they should give him Webber's car?

If you want to watch 'fighting', there's always WWF.

I want to watch racing and the central characteristic of inspirational racing is the visible fight on the track. Competition.

If your only view of F1 is cars winning on rails then perhaps trainspotting would be your preferred spectator activity.

I don't begrudge Vettel really. I just hope for the opportunity to be inspired by and to see more of his racecraft in the future.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I want to watch racing and the central characteristic of inspirational racing is the visible fight on the track. Competition.

But this is F1, and in this competition you have fights between the cars as well as the drivers. Some cars are obviously 'fighting' much better than others.

Originally Posted by Paradise City

If only view of F1 is cars winning on rails then perhaps trainspotting would be your preferred spectator activity.

Not sure what you mean by that?!! But maybe see above answer?

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I don't begrudge Vettel really. I just hope for the opportunity to be inspired by and to see more of his racecraft in the future.

Maybe he doesn't want to 'inspire' anyone? Maybe he just wants to get on with the job of winning, and keep annoying people with use of his finger?

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Who ? Vettel ? I agree completely.

That's what I mean, yeah.

Originally Posted by Adam43

I thought that. I don't get the random liars and reference comment. Is the thought that he is just being petty and vindictive?

I think quite a few people would agree with his ranking.

I suspect that Flav. was just asked the question.

It was most likely during an interview or some such thing. When we see these type of headlines, it's not as though they are determined to tell the world. If Ross Brawn says in a press conference when asked about the Resource Restriction Agreement, for example, that he thinks in the future we need more transparency and we see the headline 'Brawn: RRA needs more transparency', it's not that he is shouting it from the rooftops to anyone who will listen.