FIA GT World Championship 2012

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Also about the ALMS, Im thinking they switch to US DTM in 2013, until it's inevitable failure (Americans like watching more than 2 overtakes in a race). Then I guess they could do Rolex with a GA version of the Z4 GT3, or find another North American series to race in.

[TF110]

You speak as if you know the new DTM cars are a failure already. You should probably wait.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by TF110

You speak as if you know the new DTM cars are a failure already. You should probably wait.

Yes TF110, I am sorry, and have made a huge mistake on my last post and am willing to admit it. Wish the mods would just delete it to be honest.

My main mistake was I forgot about Super GT/DTM in the future, as well as the new rules, and with Asian/European manufacturers around the world possibly in competition in this format in the future, Ive asked the question whether or not an American manufacturer would like to build a DTM spec car. If so, then I think the series has a very bright future. DTM cars have always been *cool* and if the 2012 specs promote good racing instead of parades, then I will indeed support it.

[TF110]

DTM/SGT linkup has yet to manifest itself though. So it may just be DTM America. I seriously hope it's both series for 2013. But new gen. DTM cars are a lot better in potential than current. Wider tires, less sensitive aero... Kinda off topic here.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by TF110

DTM/SGT linkup has yet to manifest itself though. So it may just be DTM America. I seriously hope it's both series for 2013. But new gen. DTM cars are a lot better in potential than current. Wider tires, less sensitive aero... Kinda off topic here.

A thread on ten tenths off topic, never...

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by TF110

You speak as if you know the new DTM cars are a failure already. You should probably wait.

In fairness, what we have seen of the 2012 cars looks just as aero dependent as the current ones, which is the major problem with overtaking in the series.

[TF110]

We saw one model, which is the prototype of the M3. BMW say the aero will change. The main difference is the absence of the little winglets around the rear and WIDER tires. Which allows more tire grip. The tires on the current DTM cars are 'skinny' in comparison. This is closer to SuperGT. Which is spectacular racing.

[rich07]

Anyway back on topic, Ratel refers to Australasia in his speech at Spa, getting our hopes up again of a Australian race. If it did happen then Phillip Island or Eastern Creek would be the only options.

[Purist]

Is the long course at Hampton Downs, New Zealand going to be finished here at some point? That should be a good track, and the full, 3.8-km layout is to be of FIA Grade 2 standard.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Purist

Is the long course at Hampton Downs, New Zealand going to be finished here at some point? That should be a good track, and the full, 3.8-km layout is to be of FIA Grade 2 standard.

Is there a date for completion? I dont know much about Hampton Downs but the track looks good.

[Jameson]

It's funny to see people wondering how Ratel can let GT3 cars race in GT1. Well, we should remember that those cars will be upgraded to GT1 and hence become GT1 cars and stop being GT3 cars - whatever it means (aero, engine, chassis, suspension, electronics, weight). In any case, it makes sense to do something with existing and attractive cars (such as 458, SLS, R8) instead of hoping to find a manufacturer to build just 2 cars which can not race anywhere else.

However, isn't there anyone else wondering what a Z4 is doing in a sportscar series? It looks amazing, but I still see it as a touring car and its road car version is nowhere near the prestige of the other ones out there.

As for the different classes, we shouldn't be splitting hairs. I don't care if a car used to be in GT3 and is now developed to GT1. It doesn't make it a lesser GT1 compared to something that was developed only for it. And I don't care if GT3 is just 2-3 seconds off the pace of GT1 or GT2 (GTE) getting too close to GT1 or GT3 getting faster than GT2, because all that doesn't matter as long as all of these have their own championships with enough cars and good teams & drivers and usually don't race against each other.

I'm happy to see that GT1 which I like a lot with some hesitance, seems actually being able to make it. The only thing I'm scared about is that it will become similar BoP circus that current GT3. BoP always divides people in two groups, but I think that the current GT1 BoP is great and the current GT3 BoP is crap. I hope the future GT1 will not become as bad as the current GT3, because then Ratel is just shooting his own leg and losing all the credibility he still has.

[JAG]

A number of these potential entries like the Z4, R8, 458 and SLS are dependant on the respective manufactuers producing official upgrades.

If given the go ahead costs will be high as there's only a market for a couple of cars and spares.

[Jameson]

Originally Posted by JAG

A number of these potential entries like the Z4, R8, 458 and SLS are dependant on the respective manufactuers producing official upgrades.

If given the go ahead costs will be high as there's only a market for a couple of cars and spares.

The estimated upgrade should not cost more than 50-100k, so it's nothing like what building 2 brand new cars would cost if these 2 cars would need to cover all development (upwards from 1M Euro each), because there's no market for further sales.

If there's a team who wants to race a car like that and sings that they buy 2 upgrades, it's no big deal for the manufacturer unless they are against the GT1 in general. Even easier for a manufacturer is just to give green light to the project and let the privateer team do the development. I'd guess that the big question here is whether brands like Mercedes, BMW and Ferrari will allow privateers to represent them in GT1. It's not at all a given.

[Racenut]

Originally Posted by Jameson

It's funny to see people wondering how Ratel can let GT3 cars race in GT1. Well, we should remember that those cars will be upgraded to GT1 and hence become GT1 cars and stop being GT3 cars - whatever it means (aero, engine, chassis, suspension, electronics, weight). In any case, it makes sense to do something with existing and attractive cars (such as 458, SLS, R8) instead of hoping to find a manufacturer to build just 2 cars which can not race anywhere else.

However, isn't there anyone else wondering what a Z4 is doing in a sportscar series? It looks amazing, but I still see it as a touring car and its road car version is nowhere near the prestige of the other ones out there.

As for the different classes, we shouldn't be splitting hairs. I don't care if a car used to be in GT3 and is now developed to GT1. It doesn't make it a lesser GT1 compared to something that was developed only for it. And I don't care if GT3 is just 2-3 seconds off the pace of GT1 or GT2 (GTE) getting too close to GT1 or GT3 getting faster than GT2, because all that doesn't matter as long as all of these have their own championships with enough cars and good teams & drivers and usually don't race against each other.

I'm happy to see that GT1 which I like a lot with some hesitance, seems actually being able to make it. The only thing I'm scared about is that it will become similar BoP circus that current GT3. BoP always divides people in two groups, but I think that the current GT1 BoP is great and the current GT3 BoP is crap. I hope the future GT1 will not become as bad as the current GT3, because then Ratel is just shooting his own leg and losing all the credibility he still has.

I think you are confusing GT and sports cars when you talk about the Z4. Traditionally a Grand Tourer (GT) was a big car with sporty look and a sports car is a small two seater (think AM DB4 vs MGB).

The 'new' GT class wont have GT1/2/3 it will be GT ! BOP will be used to get 'equal' performance across all cars. Take the restrictors out of a GT3 corvette, SLS and MP4 and install carbon brakes and they will be at GT1 speed (if that is the speed Ratel is after).

[alexkiller8]

mmm is not just about restrictors; gt3 cars are heavier than gt1 cars (and sls is almost 150kg heavier than "standard" GT1 weight), have a taller ride height, a less performant aero and different type of engines and i don't know if GT1 cars use different kind of tyres. So taking the sls as example, the car to be a GT1 needs

1. a huge NA swapped engine with at least 600Nm and 560-580hp (AMG 6.0 V12 should be the perfect choice) with new cooling system

2. better suspensions to lower the car

3. better aero package, because of the shape the car has a "strange" weight destribution really unbalanced on the front; so the car needs a new splitter and a rear section with a lot of downforce.

4. carbon brakes

5. a huge mass reduction as consequence of new body work material

6. maybe a new transimission for the new engine and more rialable than the gt3 one. Shift bar and not shift paddle

7. new diffuser

this is just the example of sls, other cars like 458 maybe will use an update version of the 458 GTC.... maybe with the 6.0 V12 and not the 4.5 V8 anymore.... eric clapton will be proud of this...

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by Jameson

However, isn't there anyone else wondering what a Z4 is doing in a sportscar series? It looks amazing, but I still see it as a touring car and its road car version is nowhere near the prestige of the other ones out there.

Actually I think the Z4 is a lot more of a GT racer than the M3, which just looks like a touring car (especially the GT4 version). I wish they raced with the fabulous-sounding straight six engine like the older Z4, though - the current GT3 car sounds like its ill...

[TF110]

Alex, the 458 engine can make 560hp in street trim, they don't need a V12, none of the cars need engine upgrades, just better restrictor sizes. We'll see what the rest of the 'upgrades' consist of.

[alexkiller8]

yes, the 4.5 v8 can supply 570hp, you're right but that power is reached at 9000RPM and the engine can give just "540Nm" of torque, the value of torque is too much low for a GT1 car and the limitrev is too much high for a GT racecar; surely the gt3 version of the engine will be similiar to the street car but with a lower revlimit for reliable reasons.
The 6.0 V12 that was used also by maserati mc12, in fia gt1 2010 had a power of around 560-570hp and almost 600Nm of torque with a revlimit usually kept on 7800RPM; similiar values of the dbr9 engine (that had a lower revlimit but much more torque), i think that this is the best option for a possible 458 GT1.

[Purist]

And as stated in the "tech talk" by Muscle Milk at Mid Ohio, that Aston Martin V12 could easily make 800hp in unrestricted form.

If you are bringing GT2s and GT3s up to GT1, I think you're going to have a harder time getting an engine of under 5.0 litres to have a competitive power/torque band/output. Aside from the F458, I wonder about the Z4. For that car, in GT1 trim, I don't think the 4.4-litre V8 will quite cut it. Something like the 5.0-litre V8 or V10 would seem to be a better way to more readily get the desired power/torque, or my personal favorite from BMW, use the 6.1-litre V12 (I'm probably dreaming on that one, I know).

The 6.2-litre V8 already in place should be perfectly adequate for powering an uprated Mercedes SLS.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

yes, the 4.5 v8 can supply 570hp, you're right but that power is reached at 9000RPM and the engine can give just "540Nm" of torque, the value of torque is too much low for a GT1 car and the limitrev is too much high for a GT racecar; surely the gt3 version of the engine will be similiar to the street car but with a lower revlimit for reliable reasons.
The 6.0 V12 that was used also by maserati mc12, in fia gt1 2010 had a power of around 560-570hp and almost 600Nm of torque with a revlimit usually kept on 7800RPM; similiar values of the dbr9 engine (that had a lower revlimit but much more torque), i think that this is the best option for a possible 458 GT1.

The 458's V8 is designed to do 100k+ miles, if anything the race version could rev higher if needed.

A heavy V12 in the 458 chassis would ruin the cars handling, tyre wear etc. Most important of all, it would no longer be relevant to the road model and cost a fortune to build.

[hondafan37]

I understand that in the next year the new Fia GT will be closer than the actually GT3 Rules. This is the only way to added more marks and cars to the championship. The actually GT3 must be larger restrictors and then will go down the GT1 lever to this lever.

[Purist]

JAG, given the consequences of running the air restrictors these cars have, running more revs isn't really a viable option. That 4.5-litre V8 will simply be gasping for breath up there, with very little, if anything, to show for it. And in sportscars, I don't think there's been anything that consistently revved up to the 9-12k range, since the 333SP. That car suffered from low torque as well, and the R&S Fords made the Ferraris pay for it on many tracks that weren't nearly as open as, say, Daytona.

[TF110]

Increasing the displacement of the engine can fix those problems. The engines in the 458's, Vettes, Jag's etc. can all make plenty more power. These are race engines restricted by the rule books. They'd have no problem making an extra 90hp. They all run ballast as well to meet minimum weight. There's your 'GT1'. And GTE cars are almost as fast in the first place.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by JAG

A heavy V12 in the 458 chassis would ruin the cars handling, tyre wear etc. Most important of all, it would no longer be relevant to the road model and cost a fortune to build.

Quite true. I think by opening up the restrictors you should be able to get the 458 on the pace which is a lot cheaper then redesigning the car with a different engine which could be avoided in the first place.

The SLS has enough power, no need for a V12 there.

[Purist]

TF110, the Jag probably has enough low grunt that it's fine, and that's a 5.0-litre V8. The Corvette, even in GT2 form, still has a 5.5-litre lump, again, with plenty of low-end grunt. The F458 has a smaller engine than either of those, and decidedly less torque relative to how much power it makes (to the tune of ~30% compared to the Corvette).

Also, I'm almost certain that the tolerances on the Ferrari engine are the tightest of any in the field, giving them the least flexibility to increase output. The Corvette probably has the most flexibility for increased performance, as it's running on smaller restrictors than the Jag, and has the biggest engine of all three. I'm sure the Jag has some room for increased power/torque, but it's already got massive restrictors, giving it 550-600hp at present anyway.