Course Clear?

[deadsquirrel]

Over this weekend, we've had two incidents that could have had very serious consequences.

At Brands Hatch, Lotus' were released for their qualy session when the sweeper was still on the track on the run up to Druids.

At Baltimore Indycar, a Safety Truck only just cleared Turn 1 as the cars entered on their first racing lap.

How do we stop this from happening? How serious an issue is it - is it a fundamental failing or just unlucky?

[Greem]

Just sounds like local comm breakdown. Coincidence in the timing.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

How do we stop this from happening? How serious an issue is it - is it a fundamental failing or just unlucky?

Well, the first thing we need to know is how/why they happened. Were those vehicles out on circuit with or without permission? Was there a simple breakdown in communication? Were the organisers under pressure from outside influences to run to time, which resulted in them taking "calculated risks" (e.g. I was at a meeting recently, when the green flag was called with a recovery still on the way off the circuit - it was going circuit direction and made it off before the cars came round, but still, normal procedure is to wait for the course to be clear before releasing racing vehicles)?

Anybody have that information?

[CombeMarshal]

At Castle Combe the last car in is always Echo (Clerk Of Course Ops), this car gives clearance to race control for the next session start, it is then over to race control to release the cars.

[westfieldbend]

Sweeper had permission to be on circuit.

Why not just clear by post number over a radio system like they do at bikes.

Or at least do a radio call on recovery and ES channels: 'The next session will be starting imminently, could any vehicles that are still on the circuit or have any reason why the next session should not start, please inform race control immediately.'

A very embarrassing situation for all involved I think, especially in front of the germans... (although arguably they made a fairly significant mistake by not informing the 'R-Car' to stop at the scirroco incident at graham hill bend on Saturday and delaying medical assistance for at least a minute).

[PVDA]

The vision of the Baltimore near miss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ2NA_rQd1g

[emjaya]

Very close call. A view of the Baltimore incident from above.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-WtU2ONNjw

[AMP Marshal]

[ChrisPage]

Originally Posted by emjaya

Very close call. A view of the Baltimore incident from above.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-WtU2ONNjw

Hoooh - that view really does make it look even more stupid than the other angles I've seen. Had any car run wide it would have collected the truct - none of the cars would have seen it until they were already out of control in its direction.

What is going on with Indycar? It really needs to get itsekf back on track.

[Greem]

Bear in mind that this is the first time they've raced on that circuit - there were delays at the start of the meeting because the track itself hadn't been completed (which affected the ALMS and other practice sessions by several hours).

Goodness knows what miscommunication put the drivers of both the race cars and the truck at risk, but I bet it was something terribly simple. I don't think this is endemic to the series as a whole, personally, just teething trouble at a new (and temporary) circuit.

[NewYankee01]

at knockhill this happened twice on my post and happens all the time at karting, the most recent was one trolley had to sprint with it to get it in the pits in time

[NewYankee01]

have a look at this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aboslutely astounding...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8t6zWsWvcw&NR=1

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

have a look at this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aboslutely astounding...

Yep, old news, and not quite the same thing. Still scary that a member of the public could get that close to the edge of the track, let alone that close to the edge of the car.

Probably some 'oik' who was trying to get his 15 minutes of fame in jumping over a car - I cant believe that he didnt now it was coming.

[Steve Fox]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

have a look at this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aboslutely astounding...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8t6zWsWvcw&NR=1

They are all out there!

[deadsquirrel]

Not sure the marshal clip helps this discussion.

I'll mention the 'landline' here for the first time - one channel with talkover ability, a good controller and a communicator on every post would certainly have sorted the Brands incident.

For Indycar, Safety operate with their own controller and are often 'on course' close to a start. I think in this case it was TOO close and I'm sure it won't be repeated.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

I'll mention the 'landline' here for the first time - one channel with talkover ability, a good controller and a communicator on every post would certainly have sorted the Brands incident.

I wondered when that red herring would pop up! Io'm not sure how a landline could be used to communicate with a sweeper! Don't confuse the medium with the message.

It does sound like a breakdown in communication, though. Surely no vehicle should be on circuit without Race Control's knowledge & permission?

[westfieldbend]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

I wondered when that red herring would pop up! Io'm not sure how a landline could be used to communicate with a sweeper! Don't confuse the medium with the message.

It does sound like a breakdown in communication, though. Surely no vehicle should be on circuit without Race Control's knowledge & permission?

The sweeper had permission to be on the circuit.

[Bodysnatcher]

The sweeper at Brands had been cleared to go on track.

There were multiple radio channels in operation - the flag radio network (digital BTW) - was the only one available to marshals, and was intended only to be used for controlling/monitoring flags during the DTM and VW sessions.

The sweeper was on the traditional channel (RAC T?).

I called it's presence in by phone, other posts called it over the digital flag radio (so spectators(/marshals with scanners) like Westfield would not have heard those calls)

Not really the same level of danger as at the IRL race (visibility and speeds involved)

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

Yep, old news, and not quite the same thing. Still scary that a member of the public could get that close to the edge of the track, let alone that close to the edge of the car.

Probably some 'oik' who was trying to get his 15 minutes of fame in jumping over a car - I cant believe that he didnt now it was coming.

yes i did realise when posting that it was from sky news and a lot of marshals may have already known about it but that was just plain stupid, pick a fight with an f1 car the car will win everytime... i just had to post it, first time ive seen that footage. he sure got his 15 minutes!

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

I wondered when that red herring would pop up! Io'm not sure how a landline could be used to communicate with a sweeper! Don't confuse the medium with the message.

Erm, it doesn't have to. I can imagine a radio conversation between the sweeper and r/c.

It goes:

R/C: Sweeper, have you cleared the circuit?
Sweeper: R/C I have cleared the circuit.

So - now, R/C thinks sweeper is off the course, in his 'hole'. Sweeper thinks he's told R/C that he's swept all the dirt off the track - but he's still on the course, because he hasn't been told to go 'home'.

Radio or phones are SLOW at passing messages and don't keep everyone in the loop.
In this case, course controller asking the corners at 2 mins to green flag, what's on course is good. Repeating it at 1 minutes , 30 seconds etc is also achievable.

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

It does sound like a breakdown in communication, though. Surely no vehicle should be on circuit without Race Control's knowledge & permission?

See above. If R/C involve the eyes and ears out on the course and provide an effective way to communicate, we shouldn't be able to end up in this situation.