[ELMS] ELMS (was LMS) 2012 discussion

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by AGD

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...cing-launched/

Maybe things have changed since then, I don't know.

OK, that article obviously had more info than the one I read a while ago.

Originally Posted by AGD

Well, look on the bright side, I don't get to see any ELMS races on TV! Although Estoril was a great race. It would have been nice for someone to see it on TV

Well, strictly speaking neither do I as I have no way to receive Motors, but usually there are still *cough* some ways to get the broadcasts, if you know what I mean

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by AGD

Thanks, that's interesting. The power-to-weight formula may eliminate the need for BoP. That would make it more interesting than ACO P2, but I don't know if Britcar has any other layers of BoP. Like I said, I'm not familiar with the series, but I may need to keep an eye on it. They run spec Dunlop tires, yes?

Britcar regulations can be found here: http://www.britcar24hr.co.uk/cms/e10...php?content.84

BoP is Power-to-Weight and pitstop penalty times (you're gonna hate that one):

The first place car in each class (including invitational cars) will
receive a forfeit for their next race and all future races entered in the 2012 season. This will be in the form of an
additional time penalty added to their mandatory pitstop time. This penalty will be in the form of 10 seconds
additional time per mandatory stop. These penalties are cumulative throughout the season upto a maximum penalty of 40seconds. The penalty will be wiped out when the competitor finishes a race off the class podium (1st, 2nd or 3rd).
For example if a competitor wins race 1 they will receive a 10 second penalty. If they win the next race they receive
a 20 second penalty. If they come third in class in their next race they keep their 20 second penalty. If they then
finish forth in their next race they have no penalty for their next race

Might lead to some weird stuff, coming second might be worth more under that system than winning.

But back to topic: With the ELMS losing much of its prestige (and chances for LM-invites other than the autobids), Britcar might actually be a pretty good alternative for smaller LMP-teams, especially if they are located in the UK.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

BoP is Power-to-Weight and pitstop penalty times (you're gonna hate that one):

Hideous! Power/weight is fairly tame as far as BoP goes, but pitstop penalty times? No way. Pass. I was actually getting excited about a new series to watch before I heard that! Oh well.

Off-topic again, but I guess I'll use this as the random European sports car series question thread. Do the CN cars that run in the VdeV Proto Endurance championship run spec engines like the Speed Euroseries or is that an open engine series? What about BoP? I'm looking for some new things to follow, but I'm having trouble finding anything that isn't a spec-o-rama or BoP-a-rama.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by AGD

Hideous! Power/weight is fairly tame as far as BoP goes, but pitstop penalty times? No way. Pass. I was actually getting excited about a new series to watch before I heard that! Oh well.

BTW, Dutch Supercar has the same system of penalty times. From what I get teams actually prefer it over penalty weights as it does at least not change the basic characteristics of the car. Horrible solution for spectator, never the less...

Off-topic again, but I guess I'll use this as the random European sports car series question thread. Do the CN cars that run in the VdeV Proto Endurance championship run spec engines like the Speed Euroseries or is that an open engine series? What about BoP? I'm looking for some new things to follow, but I'm having trouble finding anything that isn't a spec-o-rama or BoP-a-rama.

Everybody in VdeV runs the same Honda 2l V-Tec engine, but I am not sure if that is by spec or by default.

No BoP that I know of.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

BTW, Dutch Supercar has the same system of penalty times. From what I get teams actually prefer it over penalty weights as it does at least not change the basic characteristics of the car. Horrible solution for spectator, never the less...

I guess I could see it as being a more preferrable option over more usual BoP methods in that at least it is very clear that it is a BoP competition manipulation. People who watch ACO style racing may have no idea what is going on unless they follow the series very closely.

Everybody in VdeV runs the same Honda 2l V-Tec engine, but I am not sure if that is by spec or by default.

No BoP that I know of.

Interesting, thanks. I might have to look into following that series if it isn't a spec engine series. I can handle a single engine situation if it is like that for performance reasons. At least there are a lot of different chassis. I know there is another European prototype series (I'm blanking on the name) that might be based out of Austria or something. I'm not sure what their regulations are. I'm quite sure it has weight/restrictor BoP, but I can't remember.

[Speed-King]

The Austrian Series is simply called Sportscar Challenge.

Not a lot of BoP there, but that one really is more or less a clubsport series.

Allows LMP-cars, though. LMP625 Pilbeam-Nissan is a pretty regular starter and there also was a Lola-MG a couple of years ago and sometimes Mirco Schultis brings out his LMP-C.

Best chance for news on that is probably running www.auto-rennsport.de through google-translate.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

The Austrian Series is simply called Sportscar Challenge.

Ah, yes, Sportscar Challenge. That's the name. I'm guessing this is their website, but I don't know. There isn't a lot of information on there. No BoP? That's for me! I might have to check this series out, but I'm guessing there isn't any kind of video or audio streaming of the races (in English at least). Then again, who knows. It seems at least some SCCA CSR/DSR are streamed online and that is definitely amateur racing. The calendar does not seem too bad even if they are mainly tracks in German speaking countries, but I'm guessing the races are sprints since they are support races. Do they have pit stops?

I guess I'm so desperate to watch something non-BoP/spec that I'm interested in amateur racing now. Oh well, that's the way it goes! Thanks for the info. Any other series suggestions are welcomed.

[Speed-King]

Yeah, they do 2 25-minute sprint races per weekend.

No TV/stream/whatever, though, since there usually are no cameras at the tracks.

They usually race in one package with the DMV-Tourenwagen-Challenge which is an 'open' sprint series for GTs and touring cars, again without BoP. If somebody feels like shredding the field with an Audi DTM-car, they let him. Or ban the car outright (which they did for 2011).

Luckily, the rival Spezial-Tourenwagen-Trophy accepted the Audi in 2011. STT is also home to some old GT1-Vipers and occassionally one of Alzen's Turbo-Porsches.

That said, I've never seen STT in person, since they usually have weaker fields or run on weekends with a weaker program or historic weekends with rather high ticket prices. Whereas SCC and DMV-TCC usually run on the same weekends, which are then often bookended by a mini-endurance race of 80 minutes, organized by the AvD. These races are open for all cars from SCC and DMV-TCC but are usually not really well supported, with fields often below 20 cars.
Also, one annoying part of their rules is a mandatory 5 minute (!) pitstop. No Penalty times are added to that, but the long stops really break up the rythm of the race. So I rarely find myself watching those races all the way to the end when it is getting late, I have a long drive ahead, and the race is pretty much decided after 20 or so minutes unless mechanical failures come into play.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Yeah, they do 2 25-minute sprint races per weekend.

No TV/stream/whatever, though, since there usually are no cameras at the tracks.

They usually race in one package with the DMV-Tourenwagen-Challenge which is an 'open' sprint series for GTs and touring cars, again without BoP. If somebody feels like shredding the field with an Audi DTM-car, they let him. Or ban the car outright (which they did for 2011).

Luckily, the rival Spezial-Tourenwagen-Trophy accepted the Audi in 2011. STT is also home to some old GT1-Vipers and occassionally one of Alzen's Turbo-Porsches.

That said, I've never seen STT in person, since they usually have weaker fields or run on weekends with a weaker program or historic weekends with rather high ticket prices. Whereas SCC and DMV-TCC usually run on the same weekends, which are then often bookended by a mini-endurance race of 80 minutes, organized by the AvD. These races are open for all cars from SCC and DMV-TCC but are usually not really well supported, with fields often below 20 cars.
Also, one annoying part of their rules is a mandatory 5 minute (!) pitstop. No Penalty times are added to that, but the long stops really break up the rythm of the race. So I rarely find myself watching those races all the way to the end when it is getting late, I have a long drive ahead, and the race is pretty much decided after 20 or so minutes unless mechanical failures come into play.

That's some interesting stuff. If nothing else, the photos of those two GT series look interesting. 993s, 997s, Vipers, and BMWs that actually look like BMWs running at the back? Whoa! And non-BoPed? Amazing! Too bad these aren't enduros (at least 3+ hour ones) and too bad there are isn't video. I might have been set otherwise.

[joeb]

I think my favorite team for 2012 ELMS will be the Extreme Limite Norma team. The first reason is because it is the only car developed for the cost capped P2 regs specifically. Second of all because this recent article from PlanetLemans about the team included this quote:

OUR TARGET : To finish in the top 6 of the LMP2 championship

That is an achievable goal, I love it!

[AGD]

Originally Posted by joeb

I think my favorite team for 2012 ELMS will be the Extreme Limite Norma team.

I also like what this team is doing. The Norma looks fast especially with the paint job it had last year. Hopefully the BHF and BHHs won't ruin the look too much like it did with the Zytek. Not only does it look fast, but it runs pretty well too in terms of pace and reliability even with the Judd. Obviously the expectations are tempered with a more amateur driver lineup, but they seem to have their act together.

[lms]

I dont know.. The norma looks extremly slow and underdeveloped. In lms last year they were 7th from 9 teams....if I remember correctly the car was struggling to match the pace of the gte cars at le mans. The hell wants other p2 cars to be choked down to that level....

unless they are completely redesigning the chassis for this year which I doubt.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by lms

I dont know.. The norma looks extremly slow and underdeveloped. In lms last year they were 7th from 9 teams....if I remember correctly the car was struggling to match the pace of the gte cars at le mans. The hell wants other p2 cars to be choked down to that level....

unless they are completely redesigning the chassis for this year which I doubt.

Give the Norma its due, it was only 0.065 seconds slower in qualifying than the AMR-Ones. And it grabbed a 3rd place at Estoril in P2 (admittedly because the 2nd-placed car broke down on the final lap).

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

And it grabbed a 3rd place at Estoril in P2 (admittedly because the 2nd-placed car broke down on the final lap).

The Norma also missed Silverstone (I think that was the race it missed) so that did not help it's point standing. It also had an all-amateur lineup as far as I can tell so that did not help it's speed. Still, it wasn't much slower than other Judd cars if I remember correctly.

[gwyllion]

Lucas Ordonez has just been announced as the third driver for the Greaves Zytek-Nissan. In LMS he will race together with Alex Brundle and Tom Kimber-Smith and in Le Mans with Alex and Martin Brundle.

source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97217

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Extreme Limite Norma

OUR TARGET : To finish in the top 6 of the LMP2 championship

Originally Posted by joeb

That is an achievable goal, I love it!

As Hindy would say, "that is just fantastic!"

[LC2guy]

Can anyone tell me when the ELMS full season entry list will be announced ? Now we know who's commited to WEC in P2 i'm quite hopeful of double figures in ELMS' top class.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by LC2guy

Can anyone tell me when the ELMS full season entry list will be announced ? Now we know who's commited to WEC in P2 i'm quite hopeful of double figures in ELMS' top class.

I count 9 LMP2s at least with a couple of other possibles

[Marcel ten Caat]

Official word is that the entry list will be announced in few days (said to me yesterday).

[LC2guy]

Great, thanks. Not long to wait then. And P2 looking good, going for the overall win must appeal to many.

[lms]

cant wait. I wonder who will race here. Maybe the entries on the reserve list of lm24 will show up. Like jetalliance. There is like 14 p2 teams that has been mentioned in connection with elms

[KA]

I would guess that most of the non-WEC entered European-based P2 cars on the Le Mans list are likely to be ELMS entries, unless any of them were entered just for Le Mans...

I wonder about Signatech, OAK, and Kolles/Lotus Lola, both of which have single cars on the WEC entry, and two for Le Mans (albeit one on the reserve list for Lotus)

Could we see some or all of these maybe doubling up and running an ELMS effort alongside their WEC entry, like Greaves are doing?

In a similar vein, maybe most of the non-WEC European GTE entries for Le Mans are likely to be ELMS-bound?

[AGD]

Maybe I've missed something, but does RLR have plans for 2012? It would be ELMS if anything I guess at this point.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by AGD

Maybe I've missed something, but does RLR have plans for 2012? It would be ELMS if anything I guess at this point.

The "Murphy Sportscars" entry on the reserve list at Le Mans is RLR, and I'd suspect that it's ELMS plus potentially the Shanghai WEC round as a one-off as suggested by DSC.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

The "Murphy Sportscars" entry on the reserve list at Le Mans is RLR, and I'd suspect that it's ELMS plus potentially the Shanghai WEC round as a one-off as suggested by DSC.

Oh, ok. Is Murphy a new investor/pay driver or what? Also, is MG not putting their name on the cars like Lotus?