[ELMS] ELMS (was LMS) 2012 discussion

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by KA

Might we be seeing the beginning of the end of GTE in Europe?- certainly might explain why GTE Pro numbers were fairly small on the Le Mans entry this year, and why a few names ended up on the reserve list.

I think it will be telling to see what kind of field International GT-Open can come up with. If they have a weak GTE-field as well that would be a rather bad sign.

Either way, one more reason not to split the class into Pro and Am categories...

[kober]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Either way, one more reason not to split the class into Pro and Am categories...

Would it actually make sense to leave GTEs to pros, and dedicate much cheaper GTCs to "amateur" drivers?

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by kober

Would it actually make sense to leave GTEs to pros, and dedicate much cheaper GTCs to "amateur" drivers?

That would only slash numbers further. These series probably aren't bothered who runs in the cars as long as there are entries on the entrylist.

It's a problem because it's not like they could open the series out to GT3 as you would have a ridiculous influx of cars. Especially at Le Mans.

[Speed-King]

My idea: Throw out the GTEs alltogether, bring in the CNs from the flagging Speed Euro-Series and thus revive the old ISRS.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

My idea: Throw out the GTEs alltogether, bring in the CNs from the flagging Speed Euro-Series and thus revive the old ISRS.

I'm actually a little surprised that CN prototypes did not make their way into the ELMS this year. Anyway, it might be best to keep CN as far away from the ACO as possible so that the ACO does not corrupt it. The Speed EuroSeries seems to be doing ok and VdeV CN was doing ok last I looked (I could be wrong about the latter).

[Speed-King]

Actually, it's the other way around. VdeV is doing great but the Speed Euroseries had really small grids at most rounds last year. I think less than 10 cars at Imola and Estoril.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Actually, it's the other way around. VdeV is doing great but the Speed Euroseries had really small grids at most rounds last year. I think less than 10 cars at Imola and Estoril.

10? That's it? Wasn't there a lot of interest in the series at the start of the year? Maybe the Speed EuroSeries is going down the path of the defunct American CN Series (that wasn't it's name, but I can't remember it and it wasn't really worth remembering). Speed ES races ran on LMS weekends, right? Maybe the taint of the ELMS already hit the series!

[Speed-King]

IIRC grid sizes were all over the place...at Spa they got quite a bit of VdeV-regulars that came out to play and had pretty strong field, but it didn't really translate into full season entries.

Just looked up entry numbers:

HTTT: 16
Spa:21
Donnington: 11
Imola 14 (lots of carnage meant only 9 cars started in the actual races)
Silverstone: 17
Estoril: 9

Not quite as bad as I remembered it, but not really something I would go out of my way to see either.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Not quite as bad as I remembered it, but not really something I would go out of my way to see either.

9? Ouch. I guess ELMS teams aren't the only ones who like to skip (or take) their Portuguese vacation.

Off-topic, but are VdeV Proto Enduro races streamed online or anything like that? I'm sure they would not be in English if they were, but something is better than nothing.

[Speed-King]

www.vdev.tv has highlights of about 15 minutes for each race , but I don't think there are any livestreams. And from what I've seen the highlights clips are lots of talk and not really a lot of on-track action. Which is really dissapointing seeing how they had good 30 or 45 minute highlights on the old Raceworld-TV website.

Ah, and we've talked about this some weeks ago: I think at least for the Speed Euroseries the Honda is in fact the spec engine, at least they are an official partner of the series.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

www.vdev.tv has highlights of about 15 minutes for each race , but I don't think there are any livestreams. And from what I've seen the highlights clips are lots of talk and not really a lot of on-track action.

Yeah, I tried to watch those clips a few months back, but they were mainly interviews. I'd be interested in seeing what the racing looked like (seems interesting on paper), but I don't know. I was hoping there was something more to see, but I guess not. Oh well.

Ah, and we've talked about this some weeks ago: I think at least for the Speed Euroseries the Honda is in fact the spec engine, at least they are an official partner of the series.

Yeah, I think we came to the conclusion that we don't know which engines (if any) are being run in VdeV series aside from the Honda. I believe the Speed ES is a Honda spec engine class as you say.

Maybe we need a CN thread, but I think we're the CN fan club here and I barely know much about what is going on with it!

[Speed-King]

Hah, I just geeked out and looked through the VdeV-regs and they pretty much only refer to the FIA CN-regs. I checked the Annex J, which says this about engines:

5.1 Type of engine allowed
The engine must come from a model of car homologated or
previously homologated by the FIA in Group N.
- Cylinder capacity: less than or equal to 3000 cm
3
.
- Maximum number of cylinders: 6.
Cars with rotary piston engines covered by NSU-Wankel patents
will be admitted on the basis of a piston displacement equivalence.
This equivalence is 1.5 times the volume determined by the
difference between the maximum and minimum capacities of the
working chamber.
Supercharging of any kind whatsoever is prohibited.

However, VdeV limits engine size to 2 litres for their CNs:

4.1. Admitted cars
4.1.2. The Proto Endurance V de V Challenge is open
to the following groups, with files :
- CN – following the FFSA 2011-CN regulations
limited to 2000cc – Carbon body shell accepted
- C3 - following the FFSA 2011-CN-F regulations
limited to 1600cc
- Any other CN and C3 model, by file only.
- C1 – C2 - (on invitation, off-ranking)

So VdeV does indeed not have a spec engine.

One interesting point though: The FIA didn't manage to ruin the CN-cars, so I don't think the ACO could, either. So that's not a reason against running them in ELMS. (Yay, back to topic!)

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

So VdeV does indeed not have a spec engine.

Yeah, but what I am wondering is if anyone is using anything other than a Honda. I looked at some results lists and stuff, but they only list chassis information. If everyone uses Honda because they are clearly the best, well, more power to them I guess. I'm sure someone is running something different though with all those cars.

One interesting point though: The FIA didn't manage to ruin the CN-cars, so I don't think the ACO could, either. So that's not a reason against running them in ELMS. (Yay, back to topic!)

Ha, well, maybe that's because CN runs in relative obscurity. Maybe the trouble will start if CN becomes high profile. Then comes the BHFs, BHHs, and who knows what else. But, yeah, it seems like an interesting category on paper. It could actually be more interesting than P2 in some ways. I don't know how much serious consideration the ELMS gave to putting CN cars on the grid.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by AGD

I don't know how much serious consideration the ELMS gave to putting CN cars on the grid.

I seem to remember something about them not wanting to put them out there with the GTs. But now that we have hardly any GTs left...

I don't know, I just like the idea of a (relatively) high profile all-prototype series.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by KA

Might we be seeing the beginning of the end of GTE in Europe?- certainly might explain why GTE Pro numbers were fairly small on the Le Mans entry this year, and why a few names ended up on the reserve list.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see the point of having a GTE in Europe these days unless you want a factory team. The death of the class or merger with GT3 is inevitable

[lms]

#24 oak car doing ELMS and WEC?

[GT-Eins]

Originally Posted by AGD

...
EDIT: Is there some hope that this is a work in progress entry list and that more entries may be added? If nothing else, hopefully none are subtracted or else it may not make the minimum!

There was some hope that Spa and Silverstone would be added to the calender - we know what came along...

As for GTE - these 2nd row tracks will not attact more GT-teams. I think there are cheaper alternatives around where you can race your GTE - and then for overall-victorys. On more attractive tracks (by the way). Zolder & Donington will not attract interested Paydrivers for the teams.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by AGD

Then comes the BHFs, BHHs, and who knows what else.

I´m sure the ACO and FIA gave this some thoughts... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAYlyUGC9Yc

[Félix]

Originally Posted by lms

#24 oak car doing ELMS and WEC?

24 in WEC LMP1 and ELMS LMP2. Different cars with the same number.

[lms]

Originally Posted by Félix

24 in WEC LMP1 and ELMS LMP2. Different cars with the same number.

are you certain? btw Jacques Nicolet is the driver listed in both WEC and ELMS #24 (morgan judd)

http://www.lemans.org/wpphpFichiers/...ist_310112.pdf

http://www.autohebdo.fr/resultats.ph...2012&idEpr=969

[AndrewF31]

Well, they have the same number at least. Whether it's the same car, that will be globetrotting, remains to be seen.
A bit surprised that Olivier Plá wasn't already announced in #35, since he's designated for Le Mans with it.

A funky looking entry list. Hope there's some more GTEs out there. They've kind of wittled down in recent years. I was hoping Felbermayr would still float around, and the PRO car for IMSA, but not even Ferrari seems to be there full flight. JMW and JMB are top teams but they normally have had their set of Pros, not really related with the Factory drivers. Maybe that will change this year.

And I do hope there isn't a runaway from the Portimão event like what happened in Estoril. It was a good race but a few teams backed out. If only they secure a TV deal, on MotorsTV and/or the Web.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by GT-Eins

Zolder & Donington will not attract interested Paydrivers for the teams.

I've heard some criticism of Donington from the ELMS world, but I don't quite get it. Is it an issue about the track or are the teams concerned about the crowd size?

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

I´m sure the ACO and FIA gave this some thoughts...

Shhhh....maybe the FIA won't notice!

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by AGD

I've heard some criticism of Donington from the ELMS world, but I don't quite get it. Is it an issue about the track or are the teams concerned about the crowd size?

If it is promoted properly they will get a decent crowd!

But we would be looking at a grid of 25-30 cars instead of the 45 or so we had in 2006 so I don't think the short nature of the circuit would be overcrowded too much this time. The lack of sheltered grandstands in case of wet weather, though, is an issue there.

[DeathOrGlory]

Wait a minute, where's the HS-Kaneko OAK-Morgan/Nissan? They backed out? Its only OAK racing entering them OAK-Morgans.

[lms]

Originally Posted by DeathOrGlory

Wait a minute, where's the HS-Kaneko OAK-Morgan/Nissan? They backed out? Its only OAK racing entering them OAK-Morgans.

HS Technik? I think someone tweeted that the project is dead. Too bad. One more Morgan wouldnt hurt

(they wanted to race in the wec)