|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
22 Jun 2003, 21:50 (Ref:639524) | #1 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 258
|
Mansell v Senna Hill v Schuey
Just interested in everyones a opinion on this
I have always Believed that On the right day when the mood was right Mansell could have beaten Senna in Equal equipment no argument that over the coarse of a season Senna would have been ahead but at Silverstone for example with the crowd Behind him Mansell could have won Now I don't think the same is True of Hill and Schumacher now don't get me wrong I am a big big Damon Hill fan even more so than I ever was of Mansell but I believe in equal equipment Schumacher would always win all of the above is purely gut feel as we could never know for sure but what do you lot think Discuss |
||
|
22 Jun 2003, 22:03 (Ref:639548) | #2 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,577
|
Mansell drove with his heart where as Damon drove with his head. When Nigel really wanted it there was honestly no one in the world that could beat him, even Senna. The pole he pulled out of the bag at Silverstone '91 or his close in and pass of Piquet (again at Silverstone) in '87 are but two examples.
On the odd occasion Damon could have days like that as well (Japan '94), but what he didn't have, that Nigel did, was the ability to take any car by the scruff of the neck and make it the quickest car out there. Of course this was in the day when the driver had the ability to do that as they were not restricted by gadgets. |
||
__________________
Brought to you by Glagnar's Human Rinds: "A-bunch-a-munch-crunch-a-human" |
22 Jun 2003, 22:06 (Ref:639551) | #3 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 7,491
|
I think SchM won a race after his car caught fire - not a bad effort.
|
||
|
22 Jun 2003, 22:09 (Ref:639557) | #4 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 42,589
|
Japan '94. I was going to mention that too.
There was also Hungary '97. Listen to this: www.damon-and-the-conrods.co.uk sound file Hungary 1997 |
||
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously. |
22 Jun 2003, 23:32 (Ref:639621) | #5 | |
Rookie
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 66
|
Yeah yeah
chicken skin |
|
|
23 Jun 2003, 00:47 (Ref:639659) | #6 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,211
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
That's so frickin uncool man! |
23 Jun 2003, 01:24 (Ref:639678) | #7 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,294
|
Nigel is under-rated completely as a driving talent. Whenever I read journo's talk about him, it's always 'bravery' and 'excitement' but they never talk about the talent which he did have. I think it's a shame. He was not in the naturally gifted class like a Senna or Clark, but he was certainly one of the greatest.
As for Hill, he was psychologically incapable of dealing with TGF. |
||
__________________
Sunderland Til I Die! |
23 Jun 2003, 01:49 (Ref:639689) | #8 | |||
Rookie
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 64
|
Re: Mansell v Senna Hill v Schuey
Quote:
I do think Senna would beat him over the course of a season and more than likely outqualify him, too. But Mansell was the epitome of "Olde John Bull" and you had to love him for it. Well, at least ON the track. |
|||
__________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." ~ John Steinbeck |
23 Jun 2003, 07:01 (Ref:639768) | #9 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 7,491
|
Quote:
Don't agree with the jibe about Damon though. It was his taking on SchM at Adelaide which gave the latter the opportunity to prang him. |
|||
|
23 Jun 2003, 07:45 (Ref:639800) | #10 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,370
|
Quote:
Mansell and Senna were both "heart" racers. Not particularly reliant on tactics, guile or stealth, like Piquet and Prost. In this aspect they were from he same mould. Motivation-wise, Senna was doing it for himself, breaking his own records and challenging his own boundaries. Mansell was doing it for the crowds. Hill and TGF are similar in that they are precise and accurate drivers who rely heavily on data and engineering development. Senna is renowned for his total recall on everything but arguably he didn't need it to make the car give him a lap time, and Mansell could make the car go around someone else because he told it that it would (except at Monaco '92 ) |
||
__________________
Holden- How One Legendary Driver Earned Nine Permanent circuits- the life blood of motorsport |
23 Jun 2003, 08:28 (Ref:639831) | #11 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 72
|
On his day DH could be a match for anyone. He should never have let the 1996 season go down to the wire though and his last season for Jordan was a season too far, but he'll always be one of my favourite drivers. MS always had more raw talent, but DH was very hard working and deserved to be the 1996 WDC.
|
||
__________________
"There is a little bit more to being the new man than just to have two or three good manoeuvres" - 5 times world champion Michael Schumacher talking about the over hyped Juan Pablo Montoya. |
23 Jun 2003, 08:52 (Ref:639859) | #12 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,512
|
IMO there is no comparison between DH and MS.
With all the respect for Damon, it's like comparing Britney Spears to Ella Fitzgerald. DH got some success defeating JV (and thats' good) but he did it in a year when two cars were on the grid to win: the 2 Williams. MS is on another level, frankly. He was able to win in different cars, who (except for 2001 and 2002) were not the best. He proved fast in any kind of circuit, consistent through the years, able to keep motivation high and do his best in difficult circumstances (Monza 2000, after SPA humiliation) and so on.. Sorry, but in my opinion any attempt to compare MS to DH is a cruelty to DH himself Last edited by climb; 23 Jun 2003 at 08:53. |
||
__________________
You got to learn how to fall, before you learn to fly P.Simon |
23 Jun 2003, 10:05 (Ref:639912) | #13 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,211
|
I think it's fair to say that MS was better than DH, however, DH obviously had the talent to be worthy of a WDC, after all, not many actually acheive it.
|
||
__________________
That's so frickin uncool man! |
23 Jun 2003, 10:29 (Ref:639928) | #14 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 72
|
If MS had been in a more competative car in 1996 it may have been a different story. DH did make a few mistakes, but luckily JV was still leaning and wasn't quite in a possition to take advantage.
|
||
__________________
"There is a little bit more to being the new man than just to have two or three good manoeuvres" - 5 times world champion Michael Schumacher talking about the over hyped Juan Pablo Montoya. |
23 Jun 2003, 10:57 (Ref:639979) | #15 | ||
Registered User
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,685
|
MS was and is better than DH ever was . and IMO Senna was better than NM even on Mansell's best day
As for Senna v Shuey again in IMHO MS wins this one |
||
|
23 Jun 2003, 10:59 (Ref:639981) | #16 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 7,979
|
MS never stood a chance against Senninho.
Ayrton would have taken both Schumi's titles in '94/'95 if it hadn't been for that stupid weekend at Imola. |
|
|
23 Jun 2003, 12:13 (Ref:640060) | #17 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 13,000
|
There's no point in comparing Senna to Schumahcer - Schumacher was at the start of his career when we lost Senna. Both are the best of their eras in my view, although Mansell was closer to Senna than Hill to Schumacher, but personal feeling will always cloud Senna v Schumacher.
Mansell's guts and bravery put him above any other driver of the day, but it's a shame Honda's decline coincided with Renault's rise, meaning that we didn't see them both in great machinery at the same time. One race which showed what masters they both were was Silverstone 1988 - Senna had a dominant car, Mansell a bucket. Senna won by miles ona day when Prost wimped out in the wet, and Mansell fought from 11th to 2nd. Ayrton's qualifying pace was amazing, but Mansell could pull a lap out of nowhere as well, especially at home. It's ironic that Senna's Brazil record is quite weak, but bad luck in 1988 and 1989 surely cost him 2 wins there. It's hard not to respect Damon as a man, he was honest, hard-tryin, committed and dealt with difficult events such as Adelaide, Senna's death, his father's death and the subsequent financial woes his mother had, and his son being born with Down's Syndrome extremely well. Caricaturing Hill V Schumacher as Good V Evil, Rebel V Imperial was quite accurate. But on racing ability Schumacher is well clear. 1996 should've been easy against a rookie driver, and he still nearly threw it away with a succession fo poor starts and elementary errors. In 1995 he was frankly awful after Silverstone, with a succession of poor drives gifting Schumacher the title. he seemed to be at his best when circumstances were bad, although at Spa 1997 Diniz outqualified him in the other Arrows - hardly the mark of a champion. |
||
|
23 Jun 2003, 12:17 (Ref:640067) | #18 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,083
|
Mansel may indeed have been able to beat(or equaled)senna on a good day but hill would NEVER quite come close to shuey
|
||
|
23 Jun 2003, 15:29 (Ref:640305) | #19 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,211
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
That's so frickin uncool man! |
23 Jun 2003, 17:44 (Ref:640476) | #20 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,577
|
Hill proved his worth with that drive at Hungary 97. It wasn't tactics or luck, it was a hell of a driver dragging a dog of a car into the lead. No, he wasn't as good as Schu overall but that wasn't helped by the fact that when he began in F1 he was only 3 years younger than Schu is today. He simply started to late.
|
||
__________________
Brought to you by Glagnar's Human Rinds: "A-bunch-a-munch-crunch-a-human" |
23 Jun 2003, 17:55 (Ref:640487) | #21 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 258
|
Boots'
Yes I accept that Damon had a shakey latter half of the 96 season but remember he had first been told by Autosport he was about to get the sack then by Williams that he wasn't then by Williams that he was sacked. That has to have an effect on you psycologically. When things were all sorted at and he had a holiday to get his head back in gear he came back with one of the drives of his life in Japan to comprehensively TAKE the title Make no mistake Hill was IMO a deserving champion that year |
||
|
23 Jun 2003, 17:58 (Ref:640490) | #22 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 72
|
He would have won that race had it not been for a faulty hydrolic seal or something I think they said at the time that they only cost about 50p to buy.
|
||
__________________
"There is a little bit more to being the new man than just to have two or three good manoeuvres" - 5 times world champion Michael Schumacher talking about the over hyped Juan Pablo Montoya. |
23 Jun 2003, 18:16 (Ref:640512) | #23 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 327
|
Damon rattled Schuey enough that he hit the wall in '94 trying to keep him behind, however there is no doubt Schuey is a fantastic driver - but Hill to me will always be the man - look at Adelaide '94 - Damon never said a thing - already Schuey is whingeing this year about the points system.
He's better as he's got older and had a family I s'pose but the arrogance of Schumacher in the mid 90's still astounds me. It should still now be Damo - 2 WDC Schumacher - 4 (cheating TGF!!) |
||
__________________
Only SMARTIES have the answer..... |
23 Jun 2003, 18:30 (Ref:640542) | #24 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 258
|
Well said Bacon Sandwich
That moment in 1994 where he kept his mouth shut Galvonised my admiration of Damon Hill I was a huge Mansell fan he gave me my love of this sport but he could never have let someone get away with that (they would have been dragging him off) Hills dignaty saw me worship him from then on However here's a comment that may surprise you IMO Schuey deserved the title that year the only reason Hill was in position to win was because of political wranglings behind the scenes Thats not to take anything away from Damon though when the opportunity presented its self he rose to the occasion |
||
|
23 Jun 2003, 18:36 (Ref:640550) | #25 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 72
|
Adelaide was never proved to be clear cut cheating by MS like it was in Jerez. For Jerez MS has held up his hands and admitted that he had a rush of blood and turned in on JV. He knows he did wrong and it will always over shadow his career. But in Adelaide MS went off hit the wall, DH came up behind him and not knowing that the car was damaged went for the gap. Maybe DH should have got up close behind him and passed him on the straight as he knew that even if MS car wasn't damaged he would have lost momentum. At the time I thought it was MS fault and that he deliberatly blocked DH, but the more I see it the more it looks like a racing incident.
|
||
__________________
"There is a little bit more to being the new man than just to have two or three good manoeuvres" - 5 times world champion Michael Schumacher talking about the over hyped Juan Pablo Montoya. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
The Next Mansell, Hill or Button | DEADDUCK | National & International Single Seaters | 27 | 17 Feb 2005 22:51 |
Mansell & Hill for Premer 1 GP? | Invincible | Formula One | 26 | 15 Nov 2001 15:05 |
MG ......... Mansell, Hill or Neal in 3rd Car??? | Guy Goddard | Touring Car Racing | 10 | 2 Sep 2001 20:23 |
Mansell v. Senna - Spa 1987 | Liz | Motorsport History | 3 | 5 Aug 2001 10:34 |