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Old 18 Jun 2017, 22:51 (Ref:3745022)   #5566
chernaudi
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And that's probably why Audi didn't put their eggs into one basket with the 2012-13 and 2014-15 cars with the hybrid and relied more on engine power than hybrid. Because they at least had reliable engines and with fewer MJ, not only is the hybrid system less taxed, but the performance of the car is less dependent on them.

Granted, you can interpret this as me being an Audi fan and still PO'd about them leaving, but if the ACO took a much more moderate approach to hybrids, we'd probably have more reliable cars that are cheaper and just as fast.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 22:55 (Ref:3745023)   #5567
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And that's probably why Audi didn't put their eggs into one basket with the 2012-13 and 2014-15 cars with the hybrid and relied more on engine power than hybrid. Because they at least had reliable engines and with fewer MJ, not only is the hybrid system less taxed, but the performance of the car is less dependent on them.

Granted, you can interpret this as me being an Audi fan and still PO'd about them leaving, but if the ACO took a much more moderate approach to hybrids, we'd probably have more reliable cars that are cheaper and just as fast.
I give huge respect to Audi for what they accomplished in LMP1. They knew what it took to win Le Mans, and they managed their cars extremely well.
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Old 18 Jun 2017, 23:49 (Ref:3745032)   #5568
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It's not strange, it's the truth. Toyoda said that maybe the technology isn't ready to do such pace, and for 24hrs straight. He apologized for the drivers not being able to push flat out. I don't think many here would argue that they would take more hybrid or more electric over a simpler form of energy like more engine power. This is a slap in the face to the ACO's new rules imo. The thing is that it was mostly bad luck. The clutch issue was due to starting and restarting like Vasselon explained. That's one car down. Another car got hit by an lmp2 and the driver (close to what he did before) went too fast on a flat tire and ruined the rear end. That's two cars. The 8 car had an issue never seen before, the same issue that hit the winning Porsche. If Lapierre made it to the pits without further damaging the car, they win the race. If the #7 didn't follow directions from a 'fake' marshal, they win the race.

I think it's a little unfair to label Toyota as unreliable without noting that EVERY car in the hybrid class had reliability issues. It was definitely a race of attrition. And you can probably be sure that Toyota will work on serviceability of the front mgu without having to compromise the battery. That's what took them so much longer. They changed the battery which took another 30-45 minutes. That's at least 8 additional laps.
Mostly bad luck? It seems that Toyota's problems are always bad luck. Just a few examples: in 2008 Marco Werner spun his R10 at the Ford Chicanes and broke his clutch when restarting the car. Guess what happened? He slowly lapped around the whole circuit and Audi fixed the clutch; 2014: Audi #1 stops during the night on the Mulsanne straight with injections issues. What happened? They brought the car back to the pits and fixed it. Then the same car stopped again with turbo failure. What happened? They managed to fix it again. The result? Audi 1-2 ; 2016: both Audis have several issues, one of them stopping on track and having to crawl slowly around the whole circuit. What happened? Both cars finished, one of them on the podium.
What happens when Toyota have problems? They either break down completely or spend two hours fixing it.

Yes, Toyota have always been unlucky. The others have always been lucky.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 00:04 (Ref:3745034)   #5569
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The mentality Audi had of building the cars to be easily fixed WHEN it broke was probably the most underrated aspect of the program.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 05:49 (Ref:3745074)   #5570
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Exactly, well said. Funny how with Toyota's WRC wins and championships, there was no TMG involvement. With Toyota's class wins at the Nurburgring 24 Hours, as I understand it TMG had minimal involvement. In Toyota's numerous wins at the Baja 1000, 24 hours of Daytona, and numerous Dakar Rally wins...all had no TMG involvement. Hmmm I wonder if there is some sort of pattern here?

The ONLY race programs TMG has had direct involvement in was F1 (which yielded no wins, only embarrassment), and now (along with Oreca) their involvement in the current WEC program, which admittedly has yielded wins and at least a championship, but no Le Mans wins.
TTE (Toyota Team Europe) transformed into TMG, which it is exactly what ran the rally program in the 1990s. (The current WRC car comes from different places. Engine from TMG, aero is developed in UK by some unnamed company and car is built in Tommi Makinen's tiny shop in Finland.)
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 06:42 (Ref:3745082)   #5571
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TTE (Toyota Team Europe) transformed into TMG, which it is exactly what ran the rally program in the 1990s. (The current WRC car comes from different places. Engine from TMG, aero is developed in UK by some unnamed company and car is built in Tommi Makinen's tiny shop in Finland.)
Yes correct. My point was that most of the ex-TTE staff, who were there when TMG first started did not all stay. Also even with the staff that stayed, the staff makeup changed as Toyota hired various F1 people when the F1 program started. Key people like Ove Andersson either retired or left TMG as the F1 project went full speed ahead. People like Pascal Vasselon were hired, who has a key position at TMG now. Also people like Rob Leupen, who was hired in the mid 1990s just as TTE was transforming into TMG. Rob Leupen like Vasselon is also now a key staff member at TMG and the WEC program.

Currently I believe there are very few actual TTE employees still working at TMG. If there were many, then I'm sure Tommi Makinen would be much more willing to work closely with TMG on the WRC program. The rumor (which I believe) that Tommi Makinen wanted TMG to have as little to do with the WRC car as possible makes sense if very few original TTE members were left at TMG now. Tommi Makinen I'm sure would have very little interest in working with mostly F1 or ex-F1 people on a WRC program.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 07:20 (Ref:3745086)   #5572
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Currently I believe there are very few actual TTE employees still working at TMG. If there were many, then I'm sure Tommi Makinen would be much more willing to work closely with TMG on the WRC program. The rumor (which I believe) that Tommi Makinen wanted TMG to have as little to do with the WRC car as possible makes sense if very few original TTE members were left at TMG now. Tommi Makinen I'm sure would have very little interest in working with mostly F1 or ex-F1 people on a WRC program.
I remember he had a requirement and that was that he gets to do this in his own shop and wanted to use his own existing rally team as the base (the location also makes sense for testing especially with WRC's testing rules). What was weird is that TMG was doing a WRC car based on the lower category R5 Yaris (altough WRC '17 rules weren't even clear at that point), and Makinen was only rumored for the team principal role. Then at some point it became a completely new project and TMG was left only to do the engine.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 07:56 (Ref:3745098)   #5573
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I think Toyota were unlucky wuith the punctures, but they also need to stand back and look at themselves.

I have to also say, what on earth does Huges De Chunac do for TMG?.......other than just stand there with 1 finger on his lip?

For a flailing tyre to sever a hydraulic line, this is easy to predict at the design stage of a car, hence I feel the hydraulic lines should have been more carefully routed and engineered, then it could have made it back to the pits for repairs

Yes the servicability of the KERS units or anything mechanical is key, but I fear they were stuck with trying to achieve the minimum weight versus serviceability, as all the extra brackets and clamps will weigh more.

I am very reliably told by people within Toyota-TMG Cologne that the 2016 failure was due to the boost pipe being made from minimal layers of carbon, as they were trying to hit the minimum weight target, to the point that major body panels were also re-made with minimal carbon layers, whereby you could easily depress the bodywork by hand........but really LeMans is not Monaco, so carrying an extra 5-10Kg is worth it for a 24Hr endurance race.......again it seems F1 principles are clouding a decent LPM1 team........serviceability is more important than minimum weight
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 08:10 (Ref:3745105)   #5574
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Why do we think that even against Peugeot, Toyota and even Porsche in '14 that Audi won LM so many times, and why did Porsche win the last couple of years? You build a car to be as bullet proof as possible, but you still need to plan on the unexpected, such as freak failures or accidents.

Audi had that quick change rear end on the R8, a gearbox that could be taken apart and rebuilt in reportedly as little as 5 minutes on the R10 and R15. Porsche have a (relatively) quick change MGU, and I think that Audi R18 type platypus nose helped in that regard, unlike Toyota's bullet/raven's beak/plague doctor's mask nose.

Granted, Toyota will probably have a great car for the remaining sprint races, but as has been mentioned, it seems like--maybe due to budget, maybe just simply due to design--they've at times sacrificed too much durability for the sake of performance.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 09:50 (Ref:3745133)   #5575
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Why do we think that even against Peugeot, Toyota and even Porsche in '14 that Audi won LM so many times, and why did Porsche win the last couple of years? You build a car to be as bullet proof as possible, but you still need to plan on the unexpected, such as freak failures or accidents.

Audi had that quick change rear end on the R8, a gearbox that could be taken apart and rebuilt in reportedly as little as 5 minutes on the R10 and R15. Porsche have a (relatively) quick change MGU, and I think that Audi R18 type platypus nose helped in that regard, unlike Toyota's bullet/raven's beak/plague doctor's mask nose.

Granted, Toyota will probably have a great car for the remaining sprint races, but as has been mentioned, it seems like--maybe due to budget, maybe just simply due to design--they've at times sacrificed too much durability for the sake of performance.
I agree, in regards with being bullet proof to win Lemans. but given how they managed to get back in the race with that much damage at Silverstone does say this time was little unlucky...
I'm sure they had some sort of protection against puncture. I believe Nico pushed the car too much after the puncture...
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 09:55 (Ref:3745137)   #5576
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I guess Toyota will never ever win Le Mans, after last year they were back in full force but again bad reliability struck them.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 10:14 (Ref:3745141)   #5577
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These are testing times for a Toyota fan. You canít help but to agree with the comments made by Toyoda and Chaunac.

Apparently. They will be back.....
https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/ne...ns-win-920336/

With the new 2020 rules, things are set to get even more complicated. Shows why a basic LMP2 car very nearly won the race and toppled Porsche. Im sure Toyota will be eating their words by now. They wanted relevant tech, got it, and had their arse handed. Didn't help that Porsche pushed the living daylights off the Toyota and nearly took themselves out of contention. Maybe they should pack up and head to Tour De France with their buddies at Honda. No engines to break there.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 10:20 (Ref:3745146)   #5578
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I remember one of the Toyota staff saying how they learned after 2012 about the importance of serviceability. They were inspired a lot by Audi in that area. Also, We have to remember that cars are different. It's difficult to compare them from outside.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 11:52 (Ref:3745179)   #5579
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I remember one of the Toyota staff saying how they learned after 2012 about the importance of serviceability. They were inspired a lot by Audi in that area. Also, We have to remember that cars are different. It's difficult to compare them from outside.
They haven't learned enough.

Also, I strongly disagree with De Chaunac's comments, who look to me like sour grapes. Toyota's Research and Development arm is paying for the party, and the racing team can only race what it's given.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 16:03 (Ref:3745246)   #5580
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just one question

Was Toyota ever succesfully in something significant ???


their F1 venture was truly pathetic

their super tourer days didn't fair better


their rally may had some results but they were caught cheating


at Le Mans they are truly pathetic since the 80s despite massive budgets
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