Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising Live Chat  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Sportscar & GT Racing


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 14 Jun 2017, 18:38 (Ref:3741328)   #136
broadrun96
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
United States
Posts: 3,460
broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!broadrun96 has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
I don't consider your sport healthy when its top class' immediate future is teetering on one car maker's decisions and the fact that privateer teams may or may not show up.

But the ACO made their bed, and now they have to lay in it, whatever comes. They're reaping what they sowed. They got what they asked for, and now they have to pay the piper.
I'm sorry, can we enforce a one idiom/proverb per post rule? An limit Eeyore postings to once per hour?
broadrun96 is offline  
__________________
It was fun while it lasted, have enjoyed the people I've met but the measuring contests and arguments over who's more insider and who's smarter has just made it not worth the effort any longer. It should be fun, not work and it's just work to find actual information.
Old 14 Jun 2017, 18:46 (Ref:3741332)   #137
Maelochs
Veteran
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,846
Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!
Great discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
If LMP1 turns into what it's equivlant was after Group C and IMSA GTP died, I'll be happy. But I'm more worried about the ACO once again getting it wrong. They went for short term instant gratification with the rules instead of long term stability, and the bubble has clearly burst. Will they learn from their errors, or make the same mistakes trying to fix the current mess?
Yeah ... but the racing has been good. if they get it wrong a gain and it works out this well, that's okay too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
Granted, if LMP2 didn't have a spec engine and chassis/cost caps, it'd be a viable replacement, just like how the original GT2 class became GT1 after the original GT1 class died and became LMGTP.
Which I think we all know is what would be most likely to happen.

A modified P1-L would become the top class--essentially P2 cars with fewer development restrictions. An inexpensive class, relatively (at least at the start) because teams could modify existing P2 chassis and use proven engines.

Even the FIA could figure that one out if they needed to in a hurry.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 15 Jun 2017, 12:11 (Ref:3741602)   #138
Matt
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Matt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
United States
Connecticut
Posts: 7,056
Matt has a real shot at the championship!Matt has a real shot at the championship!Matt has a real shot at the championship!Matt has a real shot at the championship!Matt has a real shot at the championship!Matt has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
That's a tad alarmist. The sport is perfectly healthy. The class is not. If you lost the top 10 teams in football, the sport would survive, and adapt and recover just fine. We wouldn't suddenly think that the entire English football league was going to go away in we lost Man Utd and co.

Again, should we lose LMP1 works teams, we have LMP1 private teams supposedly on the way. Should those not arrive, DPi could become a backup plan. However ACO already has enough LMP2 and LMP3 cars to form a small army. GTE is looking very healthy, and GT3 has around 1 car for every individual human on earth too - which is why the ACO has put it in the Le Mans Cup - it's a backup plan.

Nobody will disagree that LMP1 is not in the best of health, but the entire sport and series is doing fine and there are many backup plans should it not work out great for P1 cars. Let's not get carried away here.
I would be totally okay with a P2 based top class. They're still blindingly quick, and just need the DPi "adjustments" to make it manufacture friendly if needed.
Matt is offline  
Old 15 Jun 2017, 12:43 (Ref:3741613)   #139
fieldodreams79
Veteran
 
fieldodreams79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United States
The Dirty South
Posts: 8,149
fieldodreams79 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famefieldodreams79 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famefieldodreams79 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famefieldodreams79 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famefieldodreams79 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famefieldodreams79 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famefieldodreams79 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famefieldodreams79 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famefieldodreams79 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famefieldodreams79 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
I've not been the biggest fan of WEC, the tracks they race at (outside of LM and Spa, of course) and the very top heavy feeling of LMP Hybrids (which is another topic altogether). It's been a little wonky from the start, with less than 5 total manufacturers involved so it's never been a strong format, imho, but that's not my concern with LM or Sportscars right now. The constant finagling with BoP in the production categories just leaves a lot of unknowns and it's really starting to dampen results.

I've recently discovered an easy way to watch Irish Road Racing. Now THERE'S some great racing. Variety is the spice of life!
fieldodreams79 is online now  
__________________
"Just because I don't run my mouth don't mean I got nothin' to say!"

-Mike Cooley, The Stroker Ace
Old 15 Jun 2017, 12:49 (Ref:3741618)   #140
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 4,727
Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
I would be totally okay with a P2 based top class. They're still blindingly quick, and just need the DPi "adjustments" to make it manufacture friendly if needed.
And they're fast. Remember when the ACO was aiming for an LMP1 reference time of 3:30? Now the LMP2s are below that.

It would be a shame losing the amazing hybrids, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. There's plenty to love about privateer racing. Rebellion versus SMP versus G-Drive for the win would be plenty exciting.
Akrapovic is offline  
Old 15 Jun 2017, 14:16 (Ref:3741644)   #141
Maelochs
Veteran
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,846
Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Rebellion versus SMP versus G-Drive for the win would be plenty exciting.
And all of them free to choose their own engines as well .... Hybrids are cool in theory and the numbers are impressive (10000 bhp!!!) but the cost in obviously prohibitive.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 15 Jun 2017, 14:31 (Ref:3741647)   #142
chunder
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
England
Stevenage
Posts: 7,748
chunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Thing is, once you let money get over involved and huge factory teams with massive budgets and sponsors in this roping off thing always happens.

It is even going on in rallycross for goodness sake, guys breaking down in a field in Norway or Germany and a team of mechs going over with a tarp to put over the front of the car. It's pathetic.

I would never go to WEC again after this year at Craperstone, couldn't get anywhere near the garages, all roped off and even if you walked down the side of a truck you were looked at as if you were some sort of criminal.

If I could have asked for my money back I would, one of the poorest shows and pieces of work I have witnessed I am afraid.

Even the bloody ELMS teams were doing it, which means it comes from up top.

And that means count me out buddy, you treat fans like second class citizens, you get no money from me.
chunder is offline  
__________________
This used to be such a vibrant place. Unless you are Oz or like 24h races whats the point now?
Old 15 Jun 2017, 15:01 (Ref:3741657)   #143
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,008
S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I say bide your time with this one and hopefully in time for next season more LMP1 manufacturers will join. At least with this one there should be a fascinating Porsche vs Toyota battle, with Toyota determined to get revenge from last time
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Old 15 Jun 2017, 15:04 (Ref:3741661)   #144
Maelochs
Veteran
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,846
Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunder View Post
I would never go to WEC again after this year at Craperstone, couldn't get anywhere near the garages, all roped off and even if you walked down the side of a truck you were looked at as if you were some sort of criminal.

And that means count me out buddy, you treat fans like second class citizens, you get no money from me.
Send this to WEC please. I mean it.

You Euros might get to see all the best cars, but in the States, I can stand a few feet away from the garages and watch the mechanics tear down the engine or gearbox---I can see the cars with the bodywork removed. I see drivers walking around so often I hardly notice.

Racing does Not benefit from the snooty F1 attitude. Take the fans away and your big team guys are all working in garages and car dealerships.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 15 Jun 2017, 15:10 (Ref:3741664)   #145
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,008
S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Snotty F1 attitude? Like the Kimi fan in Spain getting a free visit to the Ferrari garage? Or Fred joining the fans in the grandstand only last Sunday? I think F1's attitude is if anything getting better
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Old 15 Jun 2017, 15:54 (Ref:3741683)   #146
Maelochs
Veteran
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,846
Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!Maelochs is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Snotty F1 attitude? Like the Kimi fan in Spain getting a free visit to the Ferrari garage? Or Fred joining the fans in the grandstand only last Sunday? I think F1's attitude is if anything getting better
The fact that there are Two notable (and exceedingly notable, I grant you) incidents since ... 1951 says all I wanted to say.

And Alonso's action came after seeing what IndyCar is like.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 15 Jun 2017, 16:02 (Ref:3741686)   #147
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 4,727
Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!Akrapovic is going for a new world record!
Or, you could say "Two notable incidents since the start of the year", which would use the same stats and twist that the other way. F1 has made changes, lets not deny that.

Quote:
And Alonso's action came after seeing what IndyCar is like.
Oh come on man.
Akrapovic is offline  
Old 16 Jul 2017, 00:03 (Ref:3751545)   #148
chernaudi
Veteran
 
chernaudi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
United States
Mansfield, Ohio
Posts: 7,486
chernaudi has a real shot at the podium!chernaudi has a real shot at the podium!chernaudi has a real shot at the podium!chernaudi has a real shot at the podium!chernaudi has a real shot at the podium!
For me, racing used to be an escape from my everyday life, which is a life that I at times largely despise. I suffer big time from depression, I'm not a very social person, and I was raised into a family that, even if only on a small, local level, was involved in motorsports.

I was interested in mechanical devices and cars from a young age. So it would seem that I should be interested in motorsports. But everywhere I turned, I eventually soured on it, mostly because of politics (I hate politics in real life, so why would I want to have anything do to with it in something that I try to enjoy and use as an escape from real life) and sanctioning body owners doing stuff that alienated their fans.

I started out a NASCAR fan, but politics and many actions that the sanctioning body have done solely with aim to line it's pockets at the expense of why I became a fan pushed me away. Many of Brian France's actions have largely kept me away. I almost never watch NASCAR on TV and only bother to keep up with it on forums.

So I went into road racing, knowing that such things in F1 were (and largely still are) worse and that Indy Car racing wasn't my cup of tea, either. And I initially loved it. The ALMS had interesting cars, and even when Audi dominated (I became a big fan of them after Panoz left and Champion was the main American based team in the LMP900/LMP1 category), there were other things to look at, because every car was different, and if you did the best job of designing and building it, and running a team, you usually won.

I was never a Grand Am fan because of it's NASCAR mentality of performance balancing and what some have called "socialized racing" by trying to artificially create an equal playing field. But by 2006 the ALMS got into that game, followed by the ACO. I dealt with it, as long as the best cars weren't the ones getting penalized. And the ALMS by 2008 had has many manufacturers involved in it as the WEC ever had.

But that's where IMO things overall in racing took a turn for the worst. NASCAR and F1 started playing gimmicks, Audi wanted a World Sportscar Championship and seemed with the departure of Max Mosley from the FIA that they were getting their way, and the ALMS no longer suited a lot of teams ROI desires. Hence, no more Audi LMP1s and no more Porsche factory LMP2s on a weekly basis in the series.

It wasn't so bad by 2010, because IMSA was managing such a power vacuum. But then came more ACO rules changes after a series of changes starting in 2009. The frequent rules changes on the part of the ACO destabilized road racing in general, but really sucked the wind out of the sails of the ALMS and LMS. The LMS is fine now, but that was only after series promoter Patrick Peter reorganized the series into a huge pro-am championship. The ALMS gave up, as did Grand Am, who wanted the ALMS's fan base and manufacturer involvement, and merged in 2013.

And of course, there was the ACO's take on what LMP1 should become. They invested in hugely expensive and complex cars because that's what it seemed that the manufacturers wanted at the time. And over the past couple of years, we've seen the dangers emerge of such a tactic. ALMS had a similar problem with all the OEMs in LMP1 and LMP2 especially. Once a car maker wants to leave the sport and does, it leaves a huge financial hole and can create a power vacuum. Nissan was one and done at LM in '15. That wasn't a big deal because they really screwed up a lot of things, not just with car design, but over-hyping things and delivering almost nothing for it.

But when Audi Sport left, that created a power vacuum. It wasn't really even them taking two entries for LM and the WEC and going home. They took their advertising dollars, promotion, and fan activation with them. As an Audi fan, I've tried to carry on in their absence, in part believing that's what they guys at Audi Sport would want me to do, and because I was fan of racing long before they came along. We have to do so in real life when a relative or a friend dies. So it stands to reason I should at least give it a shot in racing.

But then came Le Mans, where all the factory LMP1s had issues to an extent not seen in years, and the winning Porsche was barely a lap head of an Oreca LMP2 car at the finish after the Porsche spent an hour in the garage. I was trying to pull for Toyota, but then LM showed why I rarely pulled for them in the past to the extent that I tried to.

So then I decided to pull for Porsche, knowing that doing so might be in vain, as since before LM there's been rumors of them leaving the WEC in favor of something else, hence following corporate brother Audi out of the WEC and LM within a year. Now I feel that the WEC is falling apart, especially it's top class. Unless some of the LMP1 privateer efforts that have been rumored do materialize, LMP1 might be a snoozer next season.

I know, some of will argue that it was largely that way when Audi Sport were in LMP900. But at least outside of LM, privateer teams had a chance to compete with Audi on equal terms, provided that the race was shorter than 1000km/6 hours.

Sadly, I feel that racing has become a microcosm of my life. In my life right now, there's not a lot of bright spots. I'm trying really hard to make new friends and hang out with old ones, and struggling to do both. My grandma died the morning of Le Mans this year after battling long illnesses. I also recently quit my job, but I don't think that one should be happy with quitting their job, no matter how much they came to dislike it. But I had to let go for my own good.

Maybe, perhaps, I should do the same with racing if I can't consistently find happiness being a fan anymore. I've struggled with this to some extent for nearly a decade, but especially since about 2013 I've had a harder time getting hugely giddy about being a racing fan.
chernaudi is offline  
Old 16 Jul 2017, 03:11 (Ref:3751557)   #149
YZFrider
Racer
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location:
Bay Area, CA
Posts: 229
YZFrider should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridYZFrider should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
To me it's cyclical. There are periods of good years and forgettable years. It's what gives me hope for the mid and long term future. I personally find the current era of lmp1 machinery awesome and worthy of being remembered as a great era despite low participation and what looks like a quick and costly death.
I take it you are a fan of pure racing i.e. Building a faster car or cars are the stars. You also are fascinated with mechanical marvel and technical innovation. I am in the same boat. For what it's worth SCCA road racing may offer what you want. They may not be PROFESSIONAL but at least have various classes and decent competition. Lots of other various local and regional groups putting on shows. And that's just road racing. A coworker of mine competes in autocross....lots of diversity and ingenuity. And remember auto racing is just one part of a bigger motorsports community. I've followed motorcycle racing a long time. You should follow if you don't already. Powerboat racing has a rich history and today has a crazy amount of classes and freedom that may satisfy your appetite for pure racing. Good luck!
YZFrider is offline  
Old 16 Jul 2017, 16:17 (Ref:3751884)   #150
chernaudi
Veteran
 
chernaudi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
United States
Mansfield, Ohio
Posts: 7,486
chernaudi has a real shot at the podium!chernaudi has a real shot at the podium!chernaudi has a real shot at the podium!chernaudi has a real shot at the podium!chernaudi has a real shot at the podium!
Between NASCAR and F1, F1 especially, I've also grown tired of the cult of personality that a lot of the drivers have. And a lot of the time, it's not even the drivers' fault it happens, NASCAR and the FIA/FOM love to play off that crap. But that's one of the reasons why NASCAR's ratings are going down as favorite drivers retire and I think that the cult of personality/cult of controversy sells doesn't sit well with any generation of fan bases, be it the remainder of the Great Generation, Baby Boomers, GenX'ers and Millennials.

For all the stuff that I've complained about as far as what I feel is wrong with modern day road racing, at least it still doesn't have that problem.
chernaudi is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Are Kent's getting tired Walshy Club Level Single Seaters 103 21 Jan 2005 09:45
I'm really getting tired of this guy... Tailwind ChampCar World Series 38 22 Dec 2002 21:53
Has Prosche gotten tired of being kicked aroud by the Vipers and Vettes? KC Sportscar & GT Racing 1 2 Oct 2000 13:06


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2016 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.