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View Poll Results: The No. 2 sports car series?
TUSC 19 31.15%
Super GT 11 18.03%
ELMS 9 14.75%
Blancpain 22 36.07%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 13 Aug 2015, 03:32 (Ref:3565726)   #26
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Super GT. By far. Listen, I like the mental field sizes in Blancpain, the multiclass racing is good in ELMS as well. TUSCC would be fantastic if it was just the GT classes racing. The prototype racing in that series is contrived and it's bullshit, and no amount of Daytona, Sebring, and Road America/Atlanta can solve that. The Japanese do racing right. Everybody gives them **** about weight penalties, but it's simple, it makes the racing better, and the teams have to overcome it with engineering, strategy, and pushing. The entire motoring culture in Japan is uniquely special.
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 03:44 (Ref:3565728)   #27
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I suppose so with ILMC, but I'd say WEC is more to the stiffer and less lenient style of LMS/LMES than to ALMS, with many similar ACO habits in places
I'd agree with that assessment. WEC seems to have a very different tone to the old American Le Mans Series. (Though LMS/LMES also owes quite a bit to the ALMS. )
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 13:43 (Ref:3565797)   #28
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I am surprised to see Blancpain getting so many votes. I thought the draw of protos would steer people towards ELMS and IMSA.

I would definitely put WEC at the top, because I like fast protos and multi-class racing. But thinking about it, none of the series mentioned have a full suite of steller classes. WEC is close, but they have struggled the last few in the P2 ranks and the GT Pro category has been thin. IMSA and ELMS also have classes that are strong or weak, but putting everything together it isn't just cars, car counts, and types of cars that are important for me. It is also the race format, and series schedule that plays a role. I like the 4 hours of ELMS races, but all races tend to have similar strategies then, and the season is short. So I picked IMSA because the schedule is long and varied, with 24, 12, 10, and 2.7 hour races plus even shorter events on street courses. So while the top category in IMSA leaves somthing to be desired, the different strategies involved week after week are appealing to me. Plus I can actually get to some of their races rather easily! And seeing cars on track will always trump a tv/streaming experience.
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 14:25 (Ref:3565813)   #29
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So we're including Blancpain, but no SCCA World Challenge? The overall great quality of the teams in PWC, combined with the awesome tracks the series hits surely must make it a contender.

The only major drawback to the series I see is it's stubborn insistance on carrying out the traditional (often chaotic) standing starts. That's a small gripe, and as a sports car racing fan with an appreciation for diverse, road relevant cars and tech (and great racing!), I'd think PWC would be an obvious contender.
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 14:28 (Ref:3565815)   #30
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So we're including Blancpain, but no SCCA World Challenge? The overall great quality of the teams in PWC, combined with the awesome tracks the series hits surely must make it a contender.

The only major drawback to the series I see is it's stubborn insistance on carrying out the traditional (often chaotic) standing starts. That's a small gripe, and as a sports car racing fan with an appreciation for diverse, road relevant cars and tech (and great racing), I'd think PWC would be an obvious contender.
Naw, lack of endurance races obviously diqualifies them... PWC really isn't too much better than some national GT-series in Europe, so if we include them, we could just as easily vote for VLN, ADAC-GT-Masters, British or Italian GT.
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 15:11 (Ref:3565823)   #31
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Plus I can actually get to some of their races rather easily! And seeing cars on track will always trump a tv/streaming experience.


I'm amazed by how much difference it actually makes! I tend to get excited/upset by all sort of news snippets coming in from various angles (basically non-stop these days) - only to almost loose sight of the great attraction of being track side!

I might attend some more IMSA/PWC/Indycar events next year (usually do 1 or 2 p/yr).
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 18:02 (Ref:3565856)   #32
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Naw, lack of endurance races obviously diqualifies them... PWC really isn't too much better than some national GT-series in Europe, so if we include them, we could just as easily vote for VLN, ADAC-GT-Masters, British or Italian GT.
I would tend to disagree that endurance events are necessary for a great sports car series, but I can certainly appreciate the prestige and drama these events tend to create.
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 18:15 (Ref:3565859)   #33
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So we're including Blancpain, but no SCCA World Challenge? The overall great quality of the teams in PWC, combined with the awesome tracks the series hits surely must make it a contender.

The only major drawback to the series I see is it's stubborn insistance on carrying out the traditional (often chaotic) standing starts. That's a small gripe, and as a sports car racing fan with an appreciation for diverse, road relevant cars and tech (and great racing!), I'd think PWC would be an obvious contender.
I agree, PWC is awesome. A lot of really good professional teams, and it's also pretty fan-friendly as well.

Plus, they're working on the standing start issues, progress is being made!

And the cars are great.
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 18:18 (Ref:3565860)   #34
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I would tend to disagree that endurance events are necessary for a great sports car series, but I can certainly appreciate the prestige and drama these events tend to create.
Again, agreed.
Can Am was a sprint series. And F1, for what it's worth, has always been a sprint series.
It takes a bit of an adjustment, but PWC's sprint format is very enjoyable, IMO.
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 21:06 (Ref:3565900)   #35
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SuperGT and by miles.
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 22:02 (Ref:3565906)   #36
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Naw, lack of endurance races obviously diqualifies them... PWC really isn't too much better than some national GT-series in Europe, so if we include them, we could just as easily vote for VLN, ADAC-GT-Masters, British or Italian GT.
I purposefully included only those four series as they are the only ones with a strong case to be the second-most important series (excluding standalone events like N24h). Calling anything else as the No. 2 is just a personal preference what I'm not asking here.

I voted for TUSC for a few reasons. Firstly, it has Daytona and Sebring. Secondly, it has maybe the greatest GTE class with the Le Mans winner team racing there instead of the WEC. Thirdly, despite running only in North America, it has more international flair than Super GT.
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 22:49 (Ref:3565911)   #37
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Calling anything else as the No. 2 is just a personal preference what I'm not asking here.
Is this to suggest that this thread is the final deciding factor in the matter? It seems to me that any conclusion arrived at here will still be 100% based on personal opinion.
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Old 13 Aug 2015, 22:52 (Ref:3565912)   #38
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TUSC, from my western perspective.

The only other series (other than Super GT) with real factory efforts, and the only other series with real market exposure for the manufacturers. There's a reason BMW, Porsche, Corvette, Ford and Mazda are involved.

And not only that, but a calendar which is probably the finest single collection of natural road courses in the world. Watkins Glen, Mosport, Sebring, Road America, Road Atlanta, Laguna Seca and Lime Rock to name a few. Also comes with RLM commentary these days, which is fantastic.

It's worth it for GTLM alone, and it can only improve once we get the unified Prototype regs and a tasty development race in GTLM on the go. The only thing it lacks these days is the absence of the P1 factory teams at Sebring and Petit, but that's how it is with the WEC now in existence.

Super GT? The same could probably be said, from a Japanese perspective. It's bloody massive over there.

For me, the ELMS just doesn't measure up to TUSC, but it's not supposed to. On paper, you could say they are both equally regional series, but it can never be the #2, because the WEC serves Europe like TUSC serves North America. It's second tier, it caters to privateers, rookies and gentlemen drivers, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. I enjoy the ELMS very much.

Blancpain lies in the same category as the ELMS. The lack of an FIA GT type of bigger brother category has made it the defacto European GT series, but for me it's still a second tier category, bar the Spa 24 Hours, which together with the N24 and the Bathurst 12hr forms the modern holy trinity of GT endurance racing.

*Ignore my terrible grasp of English grammar.
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Old 14 Aug 2015, 11:12 (Ref:3565973)   #39
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The strange thing about the the list of series in the poll is that only one of those series is really a true feeder category to the WEC. You frequently see teams entering the ELMS with a view to a WEC programme, or you see prospective WEC teams run out of budget/speed and relegate themselves to the ELMS (see SMP Racing).

But in terms of race attendances, television ratings and series profile, the ELMS is a very distance fourth to the other 3. It very much feels like a series put on for the competitors with any kind of media coverage feeling like a slight bonus (how teams go to sponsors with that, I will never know, but grid sizes don't seem to be much of a problem these days).

I would discount Super GT anyway as I feel like that's more of its own thing. It's fantastic, don't get me wrong! But that's really silhouette racing and the debate for me there is which is number 2 out of that and the DTM.

I voted for TUSC, just, because it still remains tied to what the Number 1 category does, even if that is loosening by the year. The GTLM class in particular stands out and is arguably better than the World Championship's version.

And the best part for us is they challenge each other for a sort of World GTE Cup on some public roads in the middle of June every year...
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Old 15 Aug 2015, 10:36 (Ref:3566157)   #40
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I picked blancpain , as i feel the protos are supported enough with the WEC ..... and i feel GT3 is the way to go and replace GTE purely on a variety basis .
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Old 15 Aug 2015, 11:30 (Ref:3566165)   #41
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For me WEC and Blancpain Endurance are on the same level.
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Old 15 Aug 2015, 13:30 (Ref:3566181)   #42
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The No. 2 sports car series?

I feel that WEC is definitely tier 1 because it has the quickest of pro and GT classes and the most tech/factory involvement etc.

However when it comes down to picking a no2 it's not quite clear cut. I'll say this TUSCC doesn't cut it, were it still ALMS with LMPs (no DPs) then it'd be a candidate but not even a stellar GTLM class which is nearly as good as the WEC GT Pro class can undo that-but that's just my personal bias. For I see sportscar racing as a technological sport that is on the cutting edge and frankly DPs and their old tech just don't warm the soul of this sportscar fan.

Thus this leads me to choosing Blancpain Endurance series or Super GT as no.2. It's a tough choice to make as I'm a big fan of both.

For me BES is no.2 as it's the premier GT only series in the world with big grids, good worldwide exposure, plenty of variety, skilled pro drivers and solid racing. If Super GT had more exposure outside of Japan (many thanks to Nismo Tv/radiolemans and our Japanese tenthers for keeping us updated) then it'd be almost no.2 but worldwide this counts against it. I'm surprised that Super GT hasn't been able to garner the exposure outside of Japan that DTM has- it's a bit of a mystery, or maybe it isn't and the Japanese manufacturers involved care only about exposure in the Asian region, although Nissan are making a good step with the Online stream with radiolemans for us non Japanese speaking folk.

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Old 15 Aug 2015, 21:29 (Ref:3566234)   #43
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While Super GT's formula is very enjoyable and has led to some great on-track action, the nature of it's cars being largely reskinned spec chassis means that it puts innovation and thoughtful car design on the back burner. It tends to produce brilliant action, certainly, but with largely spec "silhouette" cars, the sense of gravity and meaning that has always accompanied a victory in the more "pure" sports car racing formats is somewhat diminished.

TUSC's P class is similarly underwhelming, but moreso with it's dominant car designs technologically inferior to even 30 year old group-c machines. Of course, the stellar GTLM class is the main draw, and routinely produces excellent racing. The question is, does GTLM's relatively small field of well-matched and undisputably world-class teams have more to offer than Blancpain's much larger, more diverse field of GT3 teams? And how do you guys feel the European circuits that BES visits stack up against the old American bull rings TUSC ventures to?

Another question is, why not ELMS? Admittedly, being from Canada, most of my knowledge of the series is based off what I read on this board. However, even though it features the only serious prototype class of the options listed, I can see that it's short season and lack of works teams would lead many to dismiss it, understandably. I personally don't believe major manufacturer involvement is necessary or even always desirable, so I am actually a supporter of the ELMS (in theory).

As G4J pointed out, the ELMS doesn't seem to have the crowd support or public awareness, but this begs the age old question: if a great sportscar race is run through the forest and no one is there to see it, does it still make a sound? (I think that's how it went )

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Old 15 Aug 2015, 23:37 (Ref:3566242)   #44
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The chassis' in GT500 arent all spec. Thats why you have an NSX with a mid engine. Its also a hybrid. Tire war, multiple factories, different car aero and shapes and thats just GT500. GT300 you have a CRZ, Prius, BRZ, Mother Chassis cars like the GT-86 and new Lotus on top of a variety of GT3's. Thats why for me its better than everything else outside the wec.
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Old 16 Aug 2015, 01:36 (Ref:3566247)   #45
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The chassis' in GT500 arent all spec. Thats why you have an NSX with a mid engine. Its also a hybrid. Tire war, multiple factories, different car aero and shapes and thats just GT500. GT300 you have a CRZ, Prius, BRZ, Mother Chassis cars like the GT-86 and new Lotus on top of a variety of GT3's. Thats why for me its better than everything else outside the wec.
I totally forgot about all of the awesome machinery being run in GT300. I think that class' offerings alone are enough to make Super GT worthy of appearing in this poll. However, I can't seem to find any source material suggesting that the GT500 NSX's chassis is significantly different from any of the other cars used in GT500/DTM. If you know of any please provide it.
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Old 16 Aug 2015, 09:02 (Ref:3566274)   #46
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I totally forgot about all of the awesome machinery being run in GT300. I think that class' offerings alone are enough to make Super GT worthy of appearing in this poll. However, I can't seem to find any source material suggesting that the GT500 NSX's chassis is significantly different from any of the other cars used in GT500/DTM. If you know of any please provide it.
Im not sure theres a source for official info on the differences with the NSX. You can check through the super gt thread. It might be discussed there. I just recall the car having to be modified for mid engine use. Cooling and such also. I dont even know where they speak about its hybrid either. I think Mother Chassis will open up more unique gt300's, though. That should be a given.
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Old 16 Aug 2015, 10:32 (Ref:3566282)   #47
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As G4J pointed out, the ELMS doesn't seem to have the crowd support or public awareness, ...
One might get this impression upon reading this forum.
After visiting an ELMS race weekend (at least this, or previous season),
this impression will most likely have dissolved quickly.
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Old 16 Aug 2015, 12:24 (Ref:3566293)   #48
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A problem with a poll like this is exposure. Here in the US super GT has 0 exposure, ELMS not much more and Blancpain has some but it is a little funky. So TUSCC would appear to be the number one number two here but it is so second rate I'll bet all the others are better.
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Old 16 Aug 2015, 14:25 (Ref:3566298)   #49
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A problem with a poll like this is exposure. Here in the US super GT has 0 exposure, ELMS not much more and Blancpain has some but it is a little funky. So TUSCC would appear to be the number one number two here but it is so second rate I'll bet all the others are better.
One thing that's helped me appreciate TUSC more is actually the interest level on this forum from non-American posters. The question is, had TUSC's roots not been so strongly tied to a series with large international flair, how much of that interest would still exist?

On the other hand, I might betray a whiff of bias by saying I think any series that visits traditional circuits like Laguna, Road Atlanta, the Glen, Mosport, Sebring, and Road America among others automatically has it's status elevated to some extent, TUSC being no exception.
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Old 16 Aug 2015, 14:28 (Ref:3566299)   #50
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One thing that's helped me appreciate TUSC more is actually the interest level on this forum from non-American posters. The question is, had TUSC's roots not been so strongly tied to a series with large international flair, how much of that interest would still exist?

On the other hand, I might betray a whiff of bias by saying I think any series that visits traditional circuits like Laguna, Road Atlanta, the Glen, Mosport, Sebring, and Road America among others automatically has it's status elevated to some extent, TUSC being no exception.
Very little would still be there. Look at Watkins Glen. Not many folks care much about that place, despite its history. It was resigned to obscurity in Grand-Am once IndyCar left with NASCAR visiting once a year.
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