Marshals Grading is a farce !

[Dan Friel]

A very difficult subject.. and I'm not sure there's any easy answers..

I regularly marshal with people that have decades of experience - and haven't collected a signature for the same period.. I woudl trust them with my lives (which I guess I do every meeting).. but have also come across other marshals with all the badges, and wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them..

The grading system should't suggest that someone is more able than anyone else, signatures don't necessarily demonstrate competence..

I trust a stranger novice as much as a stranger incident officer..

[Stuart Hill]

Whilst I do agree with Dave,Stephen and Alan on most points here, as an ex Chief Marshal used to low attendances, I do feel that the grading system needs a little tweeking.

1) maybe (just maybe), the Novice upgrade could work in-line with the Attendance record. (ever done a meeting as a novice and not learnt something?)

2) Yes, some form of standardisation is needed as guidance to Examining Observers. e.g. one day our post had no incidents whilst upstream and down the world fell apart!! Us incident marshals got no signatures (rightly) but the poor flag marshal, who had been on his own all day and had not stopped waving bl**dy flags correctly, was refused aswell!! (Wrong)

3) Examining Obs need attendance records aswell in order to maintain their grade. I know of at least one 'X' who hasn't been on post above one meeting a year for the past four years but still has the right to sign cards!! Is he still "up-to-speed" ??

The only other probs I have with the grading system are Speed Event orientated and this is not the place to air them.

[brickkicker]

I think that 6 months is not enough meetings to gain a green badge however you worked and got the sign and thats all you need. I have found at oulton that there are a lot of XO's so it is easy to get upgraded, however at places like donington there are almost none, so how can marshals at donington progress this leaves them at a disadvantage. I was on the bank every weekend (2 or 3 days) and it took me the year plus the first few meeting of the next year to get enough to go to green. If I had been at Oulton I might have got to red by this time but would I be a better marshal???
The grading system is just a guide to experiance and cant be used to see how competant you are, this can only be picked up during the event or if you are know by IO's obs etc.
This is not in anyway a dig at Oulton as they must be doing something right to get them all coming back, and we all know donington is doing more than one thing wrong to keep them away.
But after saying that I wasnt going to worry about getting any upgrade sigs to go to red as I wasnt that bothered, but since then I got them very quick. Maybe if your after them you dont get them and when your not bothered they just fall in your lap.

[Baldy Man]

Hey Dave, Please I'm sorry if I offended you, but respectfully what I am trying to get a handle on here is peoples opinion on grading, sure using provocative language, and throwin a few ideas off the top of the head, but please don't take it personally it isn't meant that way.

I just see some problems, people progressing too fast (this scares me more than enything) - this is probably down to inconsistent XO decisions than anything else.

A lack of IOs at Oulton.

Overemphasis on progression rather than enjoyment and just letting the experience come as you attend meetings.

Grading is daunting to new marshals and may well be one of the reasons that they only attend a couple of meetings then quit.

A question here to all :-
If a marshall attends say 15 meetings in a year, do you think it's safe to say that they will be sufficiently experienced to get a green badge ? Then on atetnding the trainings at the beginning of the next season, the regional training officer can just make a judgement call as to whether upgrading is awarded. After this maybe upgrading can become a more serious matter ?

This way the new marshal does not have to worry about upgrading, rather just enjoying the racing and getting the experience. Maybe that way they would not become disillusioned ?

[EvilPumpkin]

A grade is really only supposed to be a gauge of level of experience - but it's only worth as much as the people who are grading you. I hold 3 grades with 3 clubs and I have different attitudes to all three based on who graded me. I know that others have different attitudes to me based on who I hold the grades with as well.

I can see where you're coming from Baldy Man but at the same time, I've never been to any circuit (apart from my regular one) where I wasn't questioned for a few minutes by my IO/Ob/Obex as to my level of experience. I think grades are more of a guideline than a rule and should be treated as such.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by brickkicker
I think that 6 months is not enough meetings to gain a green badge however you worked and got the sign and thats all you need.

Having done it, I have to disagree.....sort of. I think the attitude of the individual must also be taken into account; I'm happy to acknowledge that I'm still learning the job (oops, the 'j' word again!) - I'm my own worst critic!

I have found at oulton that there are a lot of XO's so it is easy to get upgraded, however at places like donington there are almost none, so how can marshals at donington progress this leaves them at a disadvantage.

Oulton has almost a surfeit of observers - IOs, on the other hand, are an endangered species!

If I had been at Oulton I might have got to red by this time but would I be a better marshal???

If I'd put my card in at every meeting, I'd have needed to get a signature at less than 40% of them to have got my red badge; I believe that the five signatures I have on my card are a true reflection of where I'm at. I'd rather have, as has happened, observers expressing surprise that I'm still green than have them wondering how I got a red badge.

The grading system is just a guide to experiance and cant be used to see how competant you are, this can only be picked up during the event or if you are know by IO's obs etc.

Maybe one of the shortcomings of the grading system is that it doesn't require anything more than attendance signatures to maintain a grade, although, having said that, I do know of one IO who was downgraded recently.

This is not in anyway a dig at Oulton as they must be doing something right to get them all coming back, and we all know donington is doing more than one thing wrong to keep them away.

I've never done Donington, so I can't comment, but I have enjoyed marshalling at every circuit I've been to - Oulton, Anglesey, Mallory, Aintree, Cadwell, Croft, New Brighton Prom & Three Sisters. Going to Brands at the end of the month.....

[Beardy359]

Speaking as one who is quite happy to be an incident marshal I am quite happy with the system. I dont need to worry about anything other than getting my five sigs. a year + training days. This suits me as I don't necessarily want to do the same type of meeting each weekend.However, I can see that the "ambitous" marshal may get deterred if they feel that the system is acting in a way that seems to them to be artificially restricting their grading ( ie. shortasge of examining observers). On the other hand the person who is not that interested in another grade will likewise be discouraged if the "ambitous" ones get the "best" posts in order to gain signatures!

I think that one possible answer would be the introduction of training posts, say two per circuit, on which complete novices could be given a couple of meetings as a grounding. They could also be used to develop those that aspired to a new skill. I am not suggesting that they spend every meeting on these posts, but possibly spend two or three meetings a year. Obviously these posts would be run by experienced observers.

I do not agree that I should lose my grading if I do not happen to attend a given number of incidents a year - I foresee a lot of novices about if this were the case.

God it was dificult trying not to imply one grade is better or higher than another while typing all that!

[Baldy Man]

Beardy, I do like the idea of not losing your grade and suspect that was put in there to retain marshals, probably by people who regard marshalling as a career rather than a hobby. If this was the case then maybe marshals who had to give up thru things like family commitment would be more inclined to come back to the sport ?

[serverbrainfailure]

isn't every post potentially a training post - I've seen my biggest incident at a "totally quiet" one...

[Baldy Man]

True, there seems to be posts, water tower and avenue at Oulton spring to mind where you don't get small ones, just absolutely huge crashes !

Why rather than having a small grading card is there not a booklet, where the XO or just O can write comments rather than just a signature, then a panel can decide on the upgrading, also I think a well written comment can have a more positive impact on marshal morale than a plain old signature ? For example, good handling of fire extinguisher, but next meeting please concentrate on driver handling.

Another point - the marshal owns the upgrading record, and if that is lost (or washed !!) then the evidence (easy to forge anyway) is gone.
So why is there not a central record of marshals upgrading criteria, icluding attendance ?

[Woolley]

I've got 14 signatures + training days on my flag card from over 12 months ago.

Has anyone any suggestions as to where I've put it - it's in the house somewhere.

I've never had much interest in gaining signatures, as you can tell from the above comment. I've let them come when earned. I do remember it was nice to get rid of the Trainee (nee Novice) badge, and perhaps it should be easier to get a green and harder to get a red. As I often get made up to I/O these days (despite not having had the training) I view the badges as a guide on post as to what kind of Marshal to expect. In all but a few cases, they are an accurate guide, one or two leave you wondering.

I don't think the system puts people off at all. The problem with it seems to be that with falling numbers it's harder to give proper training to those who still have most to learn, and I don't believe anyone knows enough not to still be learning.

[Flaggie]

As an Aussie, am intreigued to know who the Brit grading system actually works. Sounds like you need x number of sigs to certify competence in a certain field. Is that right?

Over here the marshals/officials are grouped according to jobs. Flaggies are in gp F, Firies in group E for example.
Each of these groups has 5 sub groups, Grade 1-4 and Trainnee, or 5. Every newbie starts as a 5. You do three days trackside (or in race control, or whaevere is appropriate for what you want to do) you are then eligible to APPLY for a grade 4 Licence. Grade 4's are then supposed to work under direct supervision from a senior of grade 3 or higher. Some marshalling clubs, like mine, make that 3 day stipulation a touch longer. It's 10 for us.

To then move up the grades you need to attend training courses. One is a generic module, and one is a specialist module in your chosen field. You then get an event assessment, and if successful, you can apply to be upgraded.

Sounds a little less of a hassle than what you guys are dealing with, with lack of blokes able to sign your cards... Not that what we have is 100% either.

[manicmarshal]

So will I send you all into apoplexy when I tell you i bought my green badge and didn't hand in any card with any signatures on it...

[Stephen Green]

I think there are a couple of points coming to the fore here.

The first is that novice marshals want to get rid of their green badge as soon as possible, to become a 'real' marshal. I can understand that view and remember the days (centuries ago) when I was in exactly the same position. Remember that novice marshals cannot volunteer for the GP, something that many new marshals want to do above all else.

Secondly, we are talking about the time it takes to gain the signatures to lose the green badge. Some take 6 months while others take a year or more. That's down to the amount of time you are able to devote to marshalling, not your ability to collect signatures. By definition some will get there quicker than others!

By and large I believe the grading scheme to be pretty good. Sure there are areas where some would like to see change, but what business or sport doesn't grow by progression?

The idea of having novice marshals on a 'busy' post has some merits, but we also need to bear in mind driver safety and that we do need experienced marshals on those posts as well.

In short, there is NO easy answer to the question and we have to adapt the current scheme to suit the individual needs. I do agree however that we need more examining observers in order to allow those needing grading signatures to obtain them.

As an observer myself, it does get frustrating when a member of my team has done a particularly good job and I am unable to give him/her a signature. But that's the system and so I have to live with it!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Baldy Man
Hey Dave, Please I'm sorry if I offended you,

Don't worry about that - I only said 'could'!

I just see some problems, people progressing too fast (this scares me more than enything) - this is probably down to inconsistent XO decisions than anything else.

I don't really see a problem there - experience comes with doing the job, not time spent on the job. Don't forget upgrades don't just depend on getting the required number of signatures - they also have to be approved by the grading committee; I'm sure that the time over which the signatures have been obtained is one of the criteria they look at.

A lack of IOs at Oulton.

Not when Nadine's in charge of signing on. If she says you're an IO, you're an IO!

Overemphasis on progression rather than enjoyment and just letting the experience come as you attend meetings.

That's up to the individual; if people want to chase badges, just let them get on with it.

Grading is daunting to new marshals and may well be one of the reasons that they only attend a couple of meetings then quit.

I think you're blowing this thing out of all proportion. I can only speak from personal experience, but, as a new marshal last year, I had no problem with the grading system. None of the trainees I have ever worked with has ever expressed any misgivings. I can accept that for some people, because of their age, personality or background, it could be daunting, but I would postulate that they are a very tiny minority.

If a marshall attends say 15 meetings in a year, do you think it's safe to say that they will be sufficiently experienced to get a green badge ?

No matter how many times you ask the question, the answer is still the same. Standing around watching the racing does not give experience in incident handling; you've got to DO the job. Might as well give green badges to spectators!

Then on atetnding the trainings at the beginning of the next season, the regional training officer can just make a judgement call as to whether upgrading is awarded. After this maybe upgrading can become a more serious matter ?

Wouldn't it be better if that judgement were made by someone who has actually been on post with the marshal & seen how (s)he performed the duty? Oops, I've just advocated the present system.

This way the new marshal does not have to worry about upgrading, rather just enjoying the racing and getting the experience. Maybe that way they would not become disillusioned ?

Time to get serious. Enjoying the racing is a very important part of marshalling. We're all unpaid volunteers; the day I stop enjoying marshalling is the day I'll give up. However, let us not lose sight of the fact that we are there to do a job. I have a lot of fun on post - the joking & the mickey-taking are all part of the enjoyment but when it goes pear-shaped out there I take things very seriously. I would respectfully suggest that anyone who wants a green badge just for turning up & watching the racing should be the other side of the fence. Don't devalue the grade by giving it to timeservers.

Don't be frightened of the grading system. Look on it as a form of protection against your being given a job you're not capable of doing proficiently &, above all, safely.

It ain't broke; let's not try to fix it!

[andrew_powell98]

I have to say some intersesting posints comming out here. I have been marshalling at Oulton since 1997 and it took 12 months for me to upgrade then another 12 months to move from green to incident now I have my Flag grade come through this year so I am one of the slower upgrades. What has worried me and I was talking about at the last meeting is the problems with I/O's. There are some excellent I/O's who I would marshall with any day there are others I wont work with because I do not feel they are safe. The problem is the good I/O's have gone on to new roles and there is not as much of the Buddy system that works well with the Flags, the other problem I see is you get some marshalls who just keep going to get the I/O grade and some of these are some of the people I won't marshal with. I am aware that things could change but I have no problem with people going upto green and red quickley what I do feel is Incident marshals should be invited to train as I/O and not just go for it.
With regards Flaggie I have to say that the Aussie system works well I worked with an number of marshals at ALbert Park and they were surprised by the UK system and I would have no problems with that system in the UK but I also think the UK system has a lot of merrit too so we would need a comprimise. We to attend the training course but I would like to see more than 2 training course for the UK.
I have to agree with Dave though if it Ain't Broke don't fix it!

[Flagman]

I guess I must be one of the slowest upgrader - 25 years and still no signatures on my Observers grading card ( and no photo on it either as we didn't need them in those days )..

[Stephen Green]

*sighs deeply*

[Stoowert]

Mr Green, or should I say Mr White? The last time I looked, a novice badge was er...white!

When I retired (early, very early) from my job at a well-known finance company, 28 years spent avoiding work, I wrote to the MSA suggesting setting up a Marshal's Register. I offered to run it. The plan I was thinking of is every Monday, say, every Chief who has run a curcuit race, rally or whatever, sends me a copy of their signing on sheets. I would then enter these in a database. At the end of the year I could provide details of all marshal's signing on for the year, including those that volenteered and didn't show up,and so on. Thereby allowing the cards to be signed just for upgrading. I was told that the system was working well so thanks, but no thanks! I think they have a point but, at the end of the day, it's an MSA licence that the MSA don't have any control over! I know I'm going to sound a bit controvercial, but I can understand the haste to get rid of the novice badge, whatever colour, but I cannot see the differance between the green & the red badge when, chances are, there is only a couple of course/fire on a post these days!
So the Australian system seems simpler? I make it that there's 20 grades before becoming an observer. Or have I got the wrong end of the digery-do?

[Baldy Man]

Some cracking ideas there, I guess the thing which I will take away from this little debate is to regard the grade more as an indication than an absolute measurement. The good thing is that most people at Oulton get to know each other and people tend to know who they best work with.
I just wish there was some representation on this forum from the BMMC. I think it would be interesting for some of the hierarchy to read this - and comment.

Also on a pragmatic point of view I could imagine if the system was completely changed, u would still get abuses no matter what, but as long as marshals keep getting to know each, other folks like that will stick out like a baboons bottom !

[Trouble]

I'm a "youngish" marshal and I've got no time for grading now. When you first join a club all the instructions are umcomprehenible and overwhelming so knowing what you are supposed to be doing is impossible.
Even with all the signiture it took from October to June to get an non-novice card and I'm still stuck with a novice name badge.
Its too bureaucratic when you can do what you want without it!

[Stephen Green]

Welcome to ten-tenths Trouble and it's interesting to hear the views of a 'new marshal'.

Stuart, I think your idea was superb and it's a shame that the MSA or whoever didn't take up your kind offer. As you rightly say, there is no real control over marshals registration by the MSA other than issuing licenses each year which they never see again!

[Flagman]

With regard to abuse of the system - with the current system there is (or at least there used to be) a filter to prevent abuse - this was the fact that in the BMRMC every regrading had to be approved by the regional committee - and in the days when I was a regional committee member it was not unknown for us to reject a regrading if we felt that 'abuse' had taken place. Some people have still not forgiven me for that....

I am not sure if that still happens - judging by the efforts of some of the people who have been given their Blue badges recently I suspect not.

[neilwaynesmith]

Would it be worth suggesting that each region sets up a dedicated grading committee? It could be comprised of existing committee members and selected experienced marshals.

It wouldn't have to be a regular thing, but would, unfortunately require a certain level of committment, which could be a problem seeing as certain regions have difficulty in filling regular committee posts. :confused:

[paul.hickman]

Having been tempted to ‘post’ I resisted – mainly because until the last 24 hours there was little by way of real debate. The principle of ‘if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it’ seemed to win the day.

But a few (personal) thoughts!
 Since the introduction of the MSA registration/grading system that originated by the BMMC has withered – the MSA has never got to grips with it’s responsibilities towards marshals and marshalling. Central to this is proper grading – and dare I say it, re-grading
 Why does a ‘good’ flag marshal need to have experience of running around on the track? Indeed one of the best blue flag marshals I have ever come across was a young Korean who had never been to a race meeting before!
 Quantity can never equate with quality! At early morning post briefings I am looking to maximise the efficiency of the whole team. First, unless there is a nominated IO, I appoint a ‘team leader’ – his (or her) role is to direct operations in the event of an incident and I expect all of the team to follow directions (and discuss it later…). In my choice I am looking for the best person to fill the role – not necessarily the most ‘experienced’
 Why grade for another role? Other than the training of new marshals to be proficient and confident in dealing with a range of incidents whilst racing continues unabated (?), if you are having ‘fun’ in what you are doing then keep doing it
 For me ‘fun’ has always been the key word – we are all volunteers who by definition are giving up our time to participate in our sport. When the ‘fun’ goes – so can we (and back to the debate on marshalling numbers, many seem to have done so)
 BUT in performing our duties there is an obligation to do so in a competent manner and for that we all need initial and refresher training. A major part of that training is ‘on the job’ either in grading for a new role or maintaining that you already have. It is here that the role of the examining observer is crucial – not to give a signature when due to the nature of events on the day it has not been appropriate and to provide advice/guidance where necessary to ensure that standards are maintained.

So bottom line? I want to work with other professional volunteers, to lead/encourage and train and to have ‘fun’! When others fall short of the standard we have a quiet discussion which in all but a handful of cases is focussed, productive and above all, amicable. Should I fall below the standard expected of me by the team then I would expect them to speak with me …