Bernie on the new teams

[duke_toaster]

Lotus hadn't, but in their initial guise Hispania and Virgin had

[ensign14]

But Campos and Virgin HAD that. Not as much as others, admittedly, but many of the more successful teams did not apply. And one that had the chance before (Prodrive) didn't even get as far as USF1.

[duke_toaster]

Selecting USF1 was clearly a mistake, but the FIA couldn't have forseen what happened to Campos happening.

[jab]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Selecting USF1 was clearly a mistake, but the FIA couldn't have forseen what happened to Campos happening.

They couldn't have foreseen a team that's never raced in F1 before running out of money due to a lack of sponsorship? I'm not so sure...

[duke_toaster]

New teams by their very nature haven't raced in F1 before

[jab]

If you want to be pedantic, not necessarily, but that's besides the point

I think what happened at Campos, while not entirely predictable, wasn't particularly surprising. It's a lot more difficult than you think to raise the funds, especially when you're pretty much guaranteed to be at the back way off the pace

[GolddustMini]

i dont think virgin have done so badly, their early races were blighted with hydraulics issues and the fule tank issue but they are consistantly on a similar pace to lotus during qualifying atleast and they tend to both be similar over the race, albeit with lotus enjoying better reliability. Virgin are attempting to do something very different on a very stretched budget and im sure given time they will improve speed and reliability

I think the severe lack of testing for these new guys is posing a problem although its interesting to note that non of the new teams are pounding round from start to finish throughout free practices to maximising the track time.

I think next year will be a watershed year for all the new teams, lotus look very secure both financially, virgin are probably at the behest of bransons cash and when he gets bored and HRT well who knows whats going to happen with HRT, whos even going to build their car for next year!?


Frank williams fight against customer cars i can understand, if your the 4th or 5th best team on the grid and then three new teams crop up running customer cars from the top 3 manufacturers straight away your down to being the 8th best team on the grid, your stock is reduced, your ability to raise that all important cash for development is also reduced and you start to struggle financially, which effects your position and the spiral continues. The main issue i see is that allowing customer cars means that you can buy performance cheaper in buying a manufacturers cast offs cheaper than you could design and develop your own car, and therefore it becomes less favourable to become a constructor... frank is only trying to protect his team as a midfielder.
Obviously the irony is that frank started his team by running customer cars!

[Nicholosophy]

If there wasn't a testing ban, or at least some sort of workable testing regime that kept the costs down for all teams, the new teams would have a much better chance.

The new teams are at the stage of the development cycle where they can get tenths of a second out of improvements through testing, while the newer teams may only get a hundredth in comparison. My point is that the new teams would have a chance to get to grips with their cars and improve the show.

Right now, those who have the years of experience know how to deal with the issues because they have been there. The new teams need to get that experience, and without being able to test things we are seeing them get this experience on the race track.

Realistically all the new teams can expect to do this year is to learn more for next year. It's like a year long test program that involves 20 races. Don't blame the new teams for the lack of development; blame the short sightedness of those who implemented the testing ban in its current form.

[foreversideways]

The coded message is. Virgin and Hispania, don't bother coming back next year because your not wanted. Still Bernie's words will probably give Mr Branson the excuse he needs to get out.

[porman]

I think we all know what Bernie means but he can't have it both ways. I still have a hard time calling team Malaysia Lotus, but what they have done is impressive. I can see a place for them and like many here have said, if some testing was allowed Lotus would be even stronger. Now they just need to get some more consistent drivers.

[ensign14]

Just call them Fauxtus.

[pannenmann]

Originally Posted by jab

Yeah but because of the customer car rules in general, Williams could recoup that 80 mil by selling more cars at a profit

However, what Williams are scared of is no one being willing to buy their cars because they're not good enough, which is their problem if you ask me

But wouldn't that lead ultimately to just one or two manufactures remaining? By the logic of economy, Williams for example will be better off also buying a RBR/Ferrari/McL whatever. Or just drop out of F1.

Plus I just don't like the idea on an emotional level. I dislike customer cars in any series, but in F1 it is worst. The car is a fundamental, central element of F1, and it just seems odd that you can buy such an important prototype instead of creating your own. The thrill of F1 is also the battle between different designs and technical gems.

[bella]

Originally Posted by GolddustMini

i dont think virgin have done so badly, their early races were blighted with hydraulics issues and the fule tank issue but they are consistantly on a similar pace to lotus during qualifying atleast and they tend to both be similar over the race, albeit with lotus enjoying better reliability.

exactly the same hydraulics issues affected all the new teams...

[steve_r]

It's far too early to pass judgement on the new teams being a success or failure. Surely everyone knew that they were going to occupy the last 6 grid slots throughout the year?

Eddie Jordan keeps saying that for the new teams, the first year is all about survival, and I think that he is correct. If midway through next season these three teams are still 3 to 4 seconds per lap off the pace, then that is the time to start asking questions.

I rekon that Virgin and Lotus have a reasonable chance of chopping back the gap to the others next season.

HRT, I am not so sure about, due to their parting from Dallara they are going to start all over again.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by steve_r

It's far too early to pass judgement on the new teams being a success or failure. Surely everyone knew that they were going to occupy the last 6 grid slots throughout the year?

Eddie Jordan keeps saying that for the new teams, the first year is all about survival, and I think that he is correct. If midway through next season these three teams are still 3 to 4 seconds per lap off the pace, then that is the time to start asking questions.

I rekon that Virgin and Lotus have a reasonable chance of chopping back the gap to the others next season.

HRT, I am not so sure about, due to their parting from Dallara they are going to start all over again.

What he said, and EJ. First year = survival. Once you have gone through that, you then are on a not quite level playing field with the rest of the grid- ie a year to prepare the new car. What the new teams don't have is the multiple years of experience of Mclaren for example, along with the huge resource they have. So, they may have a chance of catching the top teams, but experience and costs still limit you to being a mid field runner. Bernie should give these people a chance, esp. Virgin, whose approach could be the saviour of F1 from a cost point of view.

[jab]

Originally Posted by pannenmann

But wouldn't that lead ultimately to just one or two manufactures remaining? By the logic of economy, Williams for example will be better off also buying a RBR/Ferrari/McL whatever. Or just drop out of F1.

Williams wouldn't just become customers if it was brought in. Frank is against the idea, so if it was brought in, I think he'd carry on building his own cars out of principle, and look to sell some to make money from it

If we were to pretend that they were bringing in customer cars for next year, all the manufacturers will keep on building their own cars for a start - the whole point of being in F1 for them is to show off their engineering expertise. Red Bull will because they've got Adrian Newey, and Toro Rosso will buy from them as they've effectively been doing for the last few years anyway. Williams will carry on out of principle. Force India may well carry on too as they've been doing a good job with their own cars and might not benefit much from buying McLarens. Sauber have brilliant facilities so they'll probably carry on too. Lotus have only just started to build up theirs so they'd carry on. The only ones that would switch would be Virgin and Hispania (who buy anyway)

I'm sure there is a way of providing financial incentives to build your own cars, like keeping most of the prize money on the constructors championship

Originally Posted by pannenmann

Plus I just don't like the idea on an emotional level. I dislike customer cars in any series, but in F1 it is worst. The car is a fundamental, central element of F1, and it just seems odd that you can buy such an important prototype instead of creating your own. The thrill of F1 is also the battle between different designs and technical gems.

I knew this argument would come up

I think the view that F1 is the pinnacle because the teams all build their own car is quite an elitist view, and rather flawed. Not only do all the teams not build their own car now (Dallara designed and built HRT's), but it was never a central element of F1 to build your own cars until the last 25 years, and some have done it even more recently than that - Lola with Larrousse, Dallara with Scuderia Italia. It was never a prerequisite that a team had to build their own individual car until very recently, in the same way that you never had to enter 2 cars until Max became president, as part of the "professionalisation" of F1

Customer cars have always been around. Having the same design as another team was only officially banned a couple of years ago - the only difference was that you had to give your car the name of the team. And all the other "pinnacles" of each motorsport field have them - the WRC, MotoGP, NASCAR, Le Mans, whichever series you consider the pinnacle of touring cars

Also, how far do you take it? Ultimately it's only the chassis they have to build. But if you want to go down that route and take it to the final conclusion, surely that would mean each team has to design and build every part - engines, electronics, brakes, KERS etc. Look at Red Bull - they use Renault engines, the standard ECU from McLaren, Brembo brakes, and last year were planning to use Magnetti Marelli KERS as was being used on the Ferrari and Renault. Why should the chassis be any different? The cars are all hybrids anyway

At the end of the day, as I said in the first post, did anyone care when Toro Rosso won that is was with a customer Red Bull at Monza? No, because all the focus was rightly on the great story it was - the former Minardi team finally winning a race and on home soil. It didn't matter that it was a car designed and built by Red Bull Technologies in Milton Keynes. It didn't matter that it was nearly identical to the Red Bull. It was still a fantastic story for F1 and will be remembered as such forever. It may have been nearly identical to the Red Bull but it was run by a different team - for me, who the team is is more important than who the constructor is. You still have different engineers working on that car and you still have different drivers behind the wheel. No 2 cars can ever be truly identical on an F1 grid

I really don't think it would detract from F1 if they were brought back. To the vast majority of fans, F1 isn't about building your own cars. It's about racing. And if the racing is much more competitive if customer cars are allowed, then it can only be a good thing. As we saw on Sunday at Hockenheim, F1 is not pure by any means, never has been and never will be, so why pretend that it is?

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by jab

Williams wouldn't just become customers if it was brought in. Frank is against the idea, so if it was brought in, I think he'd carry on building his own cars out of principle, and look to sell some to make money from it

If we were to pretend that they were bringing in customer cars for next year, all the manufacturers will keep on building their own cars for a start - the whole point of being in F1 for them is to show off their engineering expertise. Red Bull will because they've got Adrian Newey, and Toro Rosso will buy from them as they've effectively been doing for the last few years anyway. Williams will carry on out of principle. Force India may well carry on too as they've been doing a good job with their own cars and might not benefit much from buying McLarens. Sauber have brilliant facilities so they'll probably carry on too. Lotus have only just started to build up theirs so they'd carry on. The only ones that would switch would be Virgin and Hispania (who buy anyway)

I think independent teams like Williams and Sauber could actually end up making a decent business out of selling customer cars. Does anybody believe that a big manufacturer would just sell their car to, say, HRT? They are in it for the reputation, not for the racing, so they'll choose very carefully who they want to be associated with. They couldn't live with, say, a Mercedes running around at the back because the team can't handle it - the general public would only notice that there's a Mercedes at the back being rubbish. Williams wouldn't have to consider that marketing aspect as much because they aren't racing to sell road cars.

[strider]

Originally Posted by foreversideways

The coded message is. Virgin and Hispania, don't bother coming back next year because your not wanted. Still Bernie's words will probably give Mr Branson the excuse he needs to get out.

Are coded messages allowed? Surely they're against the rules?

[ECW Dan Selby]

On the talk of new teams, American Cypher Group has officially withdrawn their entry for the FIA 2011 F1 season:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85699

Selby

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

On the talk of new teams, American Cypher Group has officially withdrawn their entry for the FIA 2011 F1 season:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85699

Selby

At least they did not make us all believe they would make it...

[Belatti]

Bernie as usual behaves machiavelically -if that word does exist in English- again. F1 needed new teams a couple of years ago when in the FIA/FOTA was with manufacturers running away and split talks. Now he says he doesnt need slow teams.

I think 13 teams grids are nice: backmarkers fights are worthy and making it hard for race leaders, too

My thought is new teams are doing well. Even HRT: they have not tested, they have no money, its a Dallara with a Cosworth for christ sake!!!

I say give the guys a chance: if they take the time, tests and resources to design their own car and fail, then I´ll say OK! go away.

However I dont expect Virgin to improve: Brandson is a cheap rat who thinks he will do it with no money. Low cost approach may be OK, but "a la Renault" (50% to 60% top teams budgets and austerity) and not "a la Virgin" (10%)

[I Rosputnik]

Rome wasn't built in a day!

Look at Red Bull and Force India.

[jab]

Both teams that had already won races in previous guises

[chillibowl]

and currently, they are also both teams which share a unique relationship with a team that has an outstanding design department.