Vettel v Whiting

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Yeah I can't believe Seb broadcast that comment. I knew when they put the "broadcast" button on the steering wheel it would be trouble - race drivers shouldn't pick what comments are aired on TV.

What's needed is a independent person/group who can decide what can be broadcast under a strict moral/ethical code....

Reading the above, it's very difficult to tell whether you are intending sarcasm/wit, or whether it's what you believe.

If it's the former, well ha-ha [ironic laugh]. If it's the latter, then it defies logic.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Again I also agree entirely with this post, however Sebastian Vettel needs to wash his mouth out with soap and water, he has a habit of swearing at the drop of a hat ...

He obviously spent far too much time playing football with a group of friends in Oxford when he lived there.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Very good point. Are the race directors actually listening to all the radio calls, or are they only taking random selected ones? Obviously you need a team of people monitoring the radios and one person can't cover it. So was vettel trying to direct it that way, or was it frustration being vented to the team?

But again, would this be penalised if it wasn't on TV? I doubt that very much.

They now monitor all radio communications whilst the cars are on track, and the drivers are actually well aware that the conversations are being listened to. That is why they obliquely inform them about track conditions, although they are ostensibly talking to the teams.

Whether Vettel considered that at that instant when the red mist came down is another question!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bauble

My point is not that Vettel swore, but that if the correct decision had been made by Whiting et al, the matter would have not got that far.

This is not a defence of Vettel, but a comment on poor decision making by Officialdom.

Do not confuse the two separate issues.

I am with you 100% on both your opening post and this one.

In every sport I have been involved in the abuse of the officials can be traced back to poor decision making. Should it be allowed, no, but that is pretty well always the cause imo.

Charlie had made the inexplicable decision to let Lewis straight line the first 3 corners of the race, sorry no excuses there, it was immediately obvious to blind Freddy, then he had to try and weasel his way out of sanctioning Max for doing exactly the same offence; albeit to a lesser degree; whilst letting Max back Vettel into Ricciardo.

Very, very poor officiating!

I take it if you start on pole there is no such thing as a jump start, because you can not gain a place or lasting advantage.

The decision not to penalize Lewis is the poorest officiating decision for an obvious blatant foul that I have ever seen.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

He obviously spent far too much time playing football with a group of friends in Oxford when he lived there.

Not so sure what I think of him ? I wonder does he use this type of language around his kids ?

[newlaprecord]

The irony is, if there is 1 thing that does NOT need any investigation at all is profanity. FIA makes a complete sh1tshow (excuse the language with how they apply the rules, but this is one thing right there that does not need any after race investigation at all. It could be as clear-cut as it gets

1. Use profanity once in a 12 months period- money penalty
2. Use profanity twice in a 12 months period - race ban (giving you time to understand that families are watching the program)


What is so hard about enforcing at least this one in a consistent way?

PS: didnt Daniel just use the ever so classy word of "motherf---er" a week before this? all I can say is WTF??? (if you excuse the pun)

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by wnut

I am with you 100% on both your opening post and this one.

In every sport I have been involved in the abuse of the officials can be traced back to poor decision making. Should it be allowed, no, but that is pretty well always the cause imo.

Charlie had made the inexplicable decision to let Lewis straight line the first 3 corners of the race, sorry no excuses there, it was immediately obvious to blind Freddy, then he had to try and weasel his way out of sanctioning Max for doing exactly the same offence; albeit to a lesser degree; whilst letting Max back Vettel into Ricciardo.

Very, very poor officiating!

I take it if you start on pole there is no such thing as a jump start, because you can not gain a place or lasting advantage.

The decision not to penalize Lewis is the poorest officiating decision for an obvious blatant foul that I have ever seen.

Get your point, except Charlie doesn't make the call on penalties - the stewards do that. All Charlie did in this instance is relay the message to the team that the incident would be looked at by the stewards after the race.

What SV did and several on this thread as well is to shoot the messenger.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Get your point, except Charlie doesn't make the call on penalties - the stewards do that. All Charlie did in this instance is relay the message to the team that the incident would be looked at by the stewards after the race.

What SV did and several on this thread as well is to shoot the messenger.

I thought so too Tourer, until:

If you go to the event and timing information and the race directors report, here: http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formul...information-19


13.03.08 Race start.

Time Car Turn Incident Action/Comments
13.03 Car No. 44 Turn 2 Missed the apex of the corner. Action: None necessary - No advantage

Mr. Whiting took it upon himself to decide the infraction and the penalty and the matter was not referred to the stewards.
The description is also blatantly incorrect as car no. 44 missed the apex of turn one skipped turn 2 entirely and straight lined turn 3 - no advantage, no action necessary - SURE!

This whole debacle is wholly and solely on Charlie's head!

[bella]

if you'll excuse the appropriation of the 'murican language...

y'all need a reality check. motorsport is full of swears. if they had microphones in the garages it'd be a continuous bleep, either for politically incorrect jokes, dubious nicknames or just plain swears.

i don't know what kind of fluffy world some of you guys live in but the responsibility for censoring the inappropriate stuff for television lies with FOM. if you don't understand how and why language gets a bit carried away sometimes then maybe the sport isn't for you? it's not a business or office environment... if you think it is or it should be maybe you need to see how many hours a day people work for, or the insufferable last minute "can you just change everything" engineering decisions, or when the scrutes want the most inaccessible part out of the gearbox when you've only got 2 hours between sessions... that'd make the pope say bad words

[bauble]

Originally Posted by bella

if you'll excuse the appropriation of the 'murican language...

y'all need a reality check. motorsport is full of swears. if they had microphones in the garages it'd be a continuous bleep, either for politically incorrect jokes, dubious nicknames or just plain swears.

i don't know what kind of fluffy world some of you guys live in but the responsibility for censoring the inappropriate stuff for television lies with FOM. if you don't understand how and why language gets a bit carried away sometimes then maybe the sport isn't for you? it's not a business or office environment... if you think it is or it should be maybe you need to see how many hours a day people work for, or the insufferable last minute "can you just change everything" engineering decisions, or when the scrutes want the most inaccessible part out of the gearbox when you've only got 2 hours between sessions... that'd make the pope say bad words

That needed saying .... badly. Thanks Bella.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by bella

if you'll excuse the appropriation of the 'murican language...

y'all need a reality check. motorsport is full of swears. if they had microphones in the garages it'd be a continuous bleep, either for politically incorrect jokes, dubious nicknames or just plain swears.

i don't know what kind of fluffy world some of you guys live in but the responsibility for censoring the inappropriate stuff for television lies with FOM. if you don't understand how and why language gets a bit carried away sometimes then maybe the sport isn't for you? it's not a business or office environment... if you think it is or it should be maybe you need to see how many hours a day people work for, or the insufferable last minute "can you just change everything" engineering decisions, or when the scrutes want the most inaccessible part out of the gearbox when you've only got 2 hours between sessions... that'd make the pope say bad words

I am outraged at that.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bella

..... that'd make the pope say bad words

Oh, NO! Not il papa! What is becoming of our world?

[2GRX7]

Originally Posted by bella

if you'll excuse the appropriation of the 'murican language...

y'all need a reality check. motorsport is full of swears. if they had microphones in the garages it'd be a continuous bleep, either for politically incorrect jokes, dubious nicknames or just plain swears.

i don't know what kind of fluffy world some of you guys live in but the responsibility for censoring the inappropriate stuff for television lies with FOM. if you don't understand how and why language gets a bit carried away sometimes then maybe the sport isn't for you? it's not a business or office environment... if you think it is or it should be maybe you need to see how many hours a day people work for, or the insufferable last minute "can you just change everything" engineering decisions, or when the scrutes want the most inaccessible part out of the gearbox when you've only got 2 hours between sessions... that'd make the pope say bad words

HAHAHA! Thank you, Bella! LOL- he said Y'ALL!!!! Love it.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by bella

if you'll excuse the appropriation of the 'murican language...

y'all need a reality check. motorsport is full of swears. if they had microphones in the garages it'd be a continuous bleep, either for politically incorrect jokes, dubious nicknames or just plain swears.

i don't know what kind of fluffy world some of you guys live in but the responsibility for censoring the inappropriate stuff for television lies with FOM. if you don't understand how and why language gets a bit carried away sometimes then maybe the sport isn't for you? it's not a business or office environment... if you think it is or it should be maybe you need to see how many hours a day people work for, or the insufferable last minute "can you just change everything" engineering decisions, or when the scrutes want the most inaccessible part out of the gearbox when you've only got 2 hours between sessions... that'd make the pope say bad words

Although I see the point that you are making bella, I personally don't think it's a relevant excuse for what happened.
Of course (or should that be coarse?) there is a lot of swearing in the garages, there is also quite probably a lot of bad language in the motor homes & meeting rooms, what happens (effectively) behind closed doors and therefore (effectively) in private, doesn't matter. The actual words used are not the problem to me.
The big difference here is that, as all the drivers know, their radio communications are anything but private, it is heard by the other teams, race control, and if the broadcasters decide to air it, it is broadcast to the entire world, which is why the drives tell tales to their teams over the radio in the hope that race control will pick up on it and do something that is to the drivers advantage (or their opponents disadvantage).
To use an analogy. I am sure that many schoolboys (or girls) have said that they think that their headmaster (of headmistress is a (insert your own particular vile insult here) to their friends, this is acceptable, because it is in private, no reprimands are expected. What Seb Vet did with is (repeated) "message to Charlie" would effectively be the same as our schoolchild standing up in front of the whole school and saying directly to the 'Head exactly what had been said amongst friends. This complete disregard of respect for the person and their position most certainly would not be accepted...

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by bella

if you'll excuse the appropriation of the 'murican language...

y'all need a reality check. motorsport is full of swears. if they had microphones in the garages it'd be a continuous bleep, either for politically incorrect jokes, dubious nicknames or just plain swears.

i don't know what kind of fluffy world some of you guys live in but the responsibility for censoring the inappropriate stuff for television lies with FOM. if you don't understand how and why language gets a bit carried away sometimes then maybe the sport isn't for you? it's not a business or office environment... if you think it is or it should be maybe you need to see how many hours a day people work for, or the insufferable last minute "can you just change everything" engineering decisions, or when the scrutes want the most inaccessible part out of the gearbox when you've only got 2 hours between sessions... that'd make the pope say bad words

The voice of reason!

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Although I see the point that you are making bella, I personally don't think it's a relevant excuse for what happened.
Of course (or should that be coarse?) there is a lot of swearing in the garages, there is also quite probably a lot of bad language in the motor homes & meeting rooms, what happens (effectively) behind closed doors and therefore (effectively) in private, doesn't matter. The actual words used are not the problem to me.
The big difference here is that, as all the drivers know, their radio communications are anything but private, it is heard by the other teams, race control, and if the broadcasters decide to air it, it is broadcast to the entire world, which is why the drives tell tales to their teams over the radio in the hope that race control will pick up on it and do something that is to the drivers advantage (or their opponents disadvantage).
To use an analogy. I am sure that many schoolboys (or girls) have said that they think that their headmaster (of headmistress is a (insert your own particular vile insult here) to their friends, this is acceptable, because it is in private, no reprimands are expected. What Seb Vet did with is (repeated) "message to Charlie" would effectively be the same as our schoolchild standing up in front of the whole school and saying directly to the 'Head exactly what had been said amongst friends. This complete disregard of respect for the person and their position most certainly would not be accepted...

Exactly the point. Vettel's message was rude, fine, I don't care. I swear an awful lot. But it was directed at race control explicitly, which was/is unacceptable. I don't follow football, but I'm fairly sure there is a lot of swearing on the pitch; but if you yelled "F*** off!" in the referee's face, I'm not sure how much more of the match you'd see out.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Exactly the point. Vettel's message was rude, fine, I don't care. I swear an awful lot. But it was directed at race control explicitly, which was/is unacceptable. I don't follow football, but I'm fairly sure there is a lot of swearing on the pitch; but if you yelled "F*** off!" in the referee's face, I'm not sure how much more of the match you'd see out.

The difference there is Vettel wasn't in the referees face. The equivalent to this is giving the football player a radio and putting him 2 miles away, and giving the other radio to his team coach, a 'listen only' radio to a man sitting near the referee, and the TV director with a magic button which will broadcast that radio to the world.

If Vettel had aggressively approached Charlie then that's a completely different situation to what actually happened.

[chillibowl]

i would also add that on a pitch (and in Viva's analogy) there is a different dynamic at play. specifically, the other athletes (students) heard the outburst as well.

how has race control's authority been challenged if the other drivers dont hear the message?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i would also add that on a pitch (and in Viva's analogy) there is a different dynamic at play. specifically, the other athletes (students) heard the outburst as well.

how has race control's authority been challenged if the other drivers dont hear the message?

To further expand on this, would the authority have been challenged or questioned at all if the TV director had not broadcast it round the world? Or has the TV director been the one to challenge authority by only broadcasting the negative message? If there was a positive one that was not broadcast then it can be seen as manipulating the race, and race directors authority.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i would also add that on a pitch (and in Viva's analogy) there is a different dynamic at play. specifically, the other athletes (students) heard the outburst as well.

how has race control's authority been challenged if the other drivers dont hear the message?

Hopefully I'm not going to appear like I wish to prolong this any more than necessary, I'm just trying to explain the points I was trying to make earlier, which probably wasn't clear.
In answer to this, although the drivers didn't hear Seb's message at the time (I suspect they were busy doing their own thing!), they do have the opportunity to hear it afterwards. Plus, it isn't just the fact of other drivers hearing it EVERYONE has an opportunity to hear it if they are interested. (Whereas in my analogy, only the students in the playground would have heard the comment).

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

To further expand on this, would the authority have been challenged or questioned at all if the TV director had not broadcast it round the world? Or has the TV director been the one to challenge authority by only broadcasting the negative message? If there was a positive one that was not broadcast then it can be seen as manipulating the race, and race directors authority.

This is another slant on things altogether, but I still feel that by saying what he did publicly (because is was in a radio message directed specifically at Charlie Whiting ("I've got a message for Charlie...") I feel that it shows a total lack of respect for authority and is totally inexcusable.
Just heading off at a slight tangent now, but I'm not saying that he should have necessarily received a race penalty for it, but I don't think it's right that he should get away with comments like that without some sort of reaction from the powers that be. This is also what Seb (or his management) have realised, hence the (apparently) grovelling letter of apology he appears to have sent...

[bella]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

To further expand on this, would the authority have been challenged or questioned at all if the TV director had not broadcast it round the world? Or has the TV director been the one to challenge authority by only broadcasting the negative message?

this...

i appreciate what everyone is saying about the other side of the coin, but... in the grand scheme of things...

[Matt]

To everyone outraged...you must have never listened to team chatter before.

One excellent thing about NASCAR is that they allow the fans to listen in to team radio via scanners...and the language used by drivers and teams aren't the most pleasant. It's a high stress environment and these kinds of outbursts tend to happen. I will guarantee MUCH worse has been said over team radio this year, that the TV crew has decided not to put on air. They knew this would get a reaction so they decided to air it.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

To further expand on this, would the authority have been challenged or questioned at all if the TV director had not broadcast it round the world? Or has the TV director been the one to challenge authority by only broadcasting the negative message? If there was a positive one that was not broadcast then it can be seen as manipulating the race, and race directors authority.

Exactly!

In essence the TV director has been afforded the trust and privilege of being privy to a drivers communication with his race engineer, and has deliberately violated that trust to make Vettel look bad.
It would be interesting to go back over the season's tapes and see how many similar comments were not broadcast protecting other drivers. Possibly why the FIA did not pursue the matter, they may have ended up with egg all over their faces for victimization in court!

The TV director is the one who has broadcast this communication and is the one who is guilty of bringing F1 into disrepute, as Bella said some time ago.

On a separate note, be very careful how you couch a protest, otherwise the form of the protest is what is disputed by an authority not its content.

[bella]

i think if he'd said it in a rational sense, in a rational setting then yeah ok, it'd be time to give him a slap and tell him to stop the nonsense. like sat in a press conference.

i've been on the receiving end of some hilarious post-race nonsense from drivers high on adrenaline before. conspiracy theories, completely wrong opinions about who drove into who, excuses that don't hold air let alone water, all sorts. usually punctuated with swears and stuff they wouldn't dream of saying normally. i find the best way to deal is to nod, smile, make encouraging noises and then absolutely rip the **** out of them later when they deny they ever said something. adrenaline does things to people. you have to judge what they say and do under the influence accordingly. especially in a sport where it's 100% essential to function at the highest level.

[wnut]

Must admit that I know a lot of very good people with extremely foul mouths and a lot of snakes who never ever swear.
Just got to take people as you find them and judge them on what they do I guess.

Related to your earlier post of the year Bella, Vettel would have developed a lot of his English language skills in motor racing garages surrounded by the appropriate "technical" language and not at some snotty public school surrounded by the prissy mentors many have had!