Stats Man..

**GTRMagic** · 7 Mar 2016, 02:38 (Ref:3620726)

Story Here

There is a fair amount of stats work going on behind the scenes during the coverage, to populate all the screens, but also the predictive stuff when the commentators talk about when a driver last stopped & if they can make it home on the fuel load....

Nice to see Mr Fiorinotto's team shown off...

chavez · 7 Mar 2016, 07:38 (Ref:3620792)

Thanks GTR.

Unfortunately the critical fuel drop data which may have assisted the commentators and public alike was not on screen.

This would've made a huge difference to everyone's understanding of the race.

**Woolley** · 8 Mar 2016, 13:24 (Ref:3621210)

I guess that would be covered by

Quote:

“There are some things that can catch you out.

It also would depend on what information is being passed to them, which that might not have been?

peckstar · 8 Mar 2016, 20:40 (Ref:3621316)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chavez

Thanks GTR.

Unfortunately the critical fuel drop data which may have assisted the commentators and public alike was not on screen.

This would've made a huge difference to everyone's understanding of the race.

didnt they say all that data went down because of the storms?

But i agree, its info that we want

sizzle · 9 Mar 2016, 03:54 (Ref:3621415)

Quote:

Originally Posted by peckstar

didnt they say all that data went down because of the storms?

But i agree, its info that we want

I dont believe the fuel tanks have level sensors in them as it is a visual indication on the tank.
Doesnt Crompton usually refer to working out how much fuel they added by working it out from the stopwatch?

Your right Pecky it would be good info if displayed to the punter.

peckstar · 9 Mar 2016, 04:15 (Ref:3621417)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sizzle

I dont believe the fuel tanks have level sensors in them as it is a visual indication on the tank.
Doesnt Crompton usually refer to working out how much fuel they added by working it out from the stopwatch?

Your right Pecky it would be good info if displayed to the punter.

I just have this recollection that crompton apologised because the data had gone down re fuel levels, But yes in the past it was visual indication and stop watches.

Lots what happening though

ForumNick · 9 Mar 2016, 04:55 (Ref:3621424)

IIRC they have stickers on the fuel rig tank?
They only have to get the fuel level in the tank to drop to the bottom sticker level, to be deemed to have 'dropped' the 140L.

Denosaur · 10 Mar 2016, 02:59 (Ref:3621755)

There's a regulated flow rate at which the fuel comes from the rig... The teams then use the consumption data from the car, calculate that against the time that fuel filler was connected and hope for the best....

In all honesty, the fuel drop rate should have sliding scale applied in events such as last weekend. That way if it's going to be cut short because of time and whatever other reason, your not applying penalties to half the field if the cars haven't taken there last stop as yet...

peckstar · 10 Mar 2016, 03:28 (Ref:3621761)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denosaur

There's a regulated flow rate at which the fuel comes from the rig... The teams then use the consumption data from the car, calculate that against the time that fuel filler was connected and hope for the best....

In all honesty, the fuel drop rate should have sliding scale applied in events such as last weekend. That way if it's going to be cut short because of time and whatever other reason, your not applying penalties to half the field if the cars haven't taken there last stop as yet...

how would a sliding scale work fairly? Nick had spent the required time stopped filling up, But a sliding scale would say bad luck Nick, you've done the right thing so we will punish you by letting others stop for less time

Mixer · 10 Mar 2016, 03:55 (Ref:3621763)

Quote:

Originally Posted by peckstar

how would a sliding scale work fairly? Nick had spent the required time stopped filling up, But a sliding scale would say bad luck Nick, you've done the right thing so we will punish you by letting others stop for less time

Exactly right. Everyone knew the rules.

You can't create a rule for every situation in any case. People **** and moan when the rules perhaps don't perfectly fit the circumstances then others complain we have too many stupid rules.

Some people took a gamble on the rules and lost.

johnh875 · 10 Mar 2016, 06:26 (Ref:3621770)

Chicken and egg pecky, if they didn't have to jam 140L in (or out the vent pipe) according to the rules I dare say LDM wouldn't have done so.

I wonder if they could have dropped the 140L without the vent pipe shenanigans? I wonder how hard it could be to arrive at a relatively simple formula to cater for red-flag stoppage time or extended safety car periods so that cars don't have to cross the finish line with near-full tanks; fundamentally we want to see the cars racing not making unnecessary pit stops.

For example, every 10 laps behind the safety car is 10L off the fuel drop, 5 min of red flag (official time to be announced by race control) is 5L off.

Mixer · 10 Mar 2016, 07:03 (Ref:3621773)

You can't make it up as you go, sliding scale is nonsense because nobody knows how many laps are going to get run.

johnh875 · 10 Mar 2016, 07:22 (Ref:3621777)

The rates could easily be part of the regs (permanent regs and not supp. regs as it would be near-enough to ignore track to track variations), not made up on the spot. I realise how it would be too complicated, like trying to understand the Duckworth-Lewis formula for calculating run targets in wet one-day cricket matches.

Alternative proposal - if the race is red-flagged, the fuel drop rule gets dropped!

Mixer · 10 Mar 2016, 07:27 (Ref:3621778)

You can't do that either be because you penalise people who comply with the rules.

peckstar · 10 Mar 2016, 09:00 (Ref:3621796)

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnh875

Chicken and egg pecky, if they didn't have to jam 140L in (or out the vent pipe) according to the rules I dare say LDM wouldn't have done so.

I wonder if they could have dropped the 140L without the vent pipe shenanigans? I wonder how hard it could be to arrive at a relatively simple formula to cater for red-flag stoppage time or extended safety car periods so that cars don't have to cross the finish line with near-full tanks; fundamentally we want to see the cars racing not making unnecessary pit stops.

For example, every 10 laps behind the safety car is 10L off the fuel drop, 5 min of red flag (official time to be announced by race control) is 5L off.

Nick did his last stop on lap 42, they same as Courtney did in 2015 to finish the race, its not a chicken and the egg thing at all, its was the strategy they chose.

you cant punish someone after they have set their strategy by having variable rules

We ran a lot of race in recent years without this problem, teams will be on top of it going forward, it was just that some (hi Triple 8) were caught out

Umai Naa · 10 Mar 2016, 10:32 (Ref:3621811)

The fact that the 140L does not actually have to remain in the tank, to be consumed in the combustion process, is contrived in itself.

The fuel drop was a parity measure in the past. Now it's just a gimmick. Nobody will look upon Race 3, 2016, with fond memories. Well besides LDM, Nick Percat, and Pecky.

Mixer · 10 Mar 2016, 10:41 (Ref:3621813)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

The fact that the 140L does not actually have to remain in the tank, to be consumed in the combustion process, is contrived in itself.

It is a technicality, which exist in rules in every sport.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

The fuel drop was a parity measure in the past. Now it's just a gimmick. Nobody will look upon Race 3, 2016, with fond memories. Well besides LDM, Nick Percat, and Pecky.

I'm pretty sure Volvo and Nissan will put up a fight with you over the gimmick.

Anyway who gives a **** if people look fondly back on it?

Weird weather throws up odd results, short races show up the people who don't know the rules properly. It is how it has always been.

peckstar · 10 Mar 2016, 10:45 (Ref:3621815)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

The fact that the 140L does not actually have to remain in the tank, to be consumed in the combustion process, is contrived in itself.

The fuel drop was a parity measure in the past. Now it's just a gimmick. Nobody will look upon Race 3, 2016, with fond memories. Well besides LDM, Nick Percat, and Pecky.

even without the fuel drop, very few would look back on it with fond memories, It had a postponed and then started under safety car, two cars went hard into turn 8 due to weather, then we spent more time under safety car due to weather, a flaggie had a incident with lightning, then it was red flagged, then it was time certain. Thats not a great race by any accounts, nothing to do with the fuel drop.

you do realise the 140 l means something, its not just a random number. Approx 140 litres plus a full tank is how much fuel the highest fuel using vehicle needs to get to the end of the race if it runs full yellow.

and the truth is that you dont know if its still a parity measure, doubtful anyone does, but i agree in that in the ideal world we wouldnt have it

Denosaur · 11 Mar 2016, 01:48 (Ref:3622021)

I must have missed the call, but did the race get called on time?? If so, then any race called on time should then have the fuel drop rule suspended.

My sliding scale idea has obviously struck a nerve, but if you're calling a race on time, then it must be for a reasons, such as extended safety car periods or red flag situation.

Bit like NASCAR green-white-checkered flag rule. If the lead see's the white, and an incident occurs after that, then the race will be finished as the leader comes around for the checkered. Back under yellow if the incident occurs before the white.

In this case, with the red flag stoppage and weather conditions pointing to a reduced race pace, they would have known that the race wouldn't have finished on time, so they could have called it then saying that the fuel drop rule has been suspended, and teams are free to play out whatever strategies they have in place. If that results in another pit stop, then so be it. Bit like getting caught out by a safety car period, when you've got a strategy in place hoping that one doesn't happen.

I'd say we wouldn't be having this discussion if it was a dry race, run full length and it was found in post-inspection that those teams failed. We be discussing how ethics of the team in question for cheating.....

Mixer · 11 Mar 2016, 01:50 (Ref:3622022)

You can't change the rules retroactively. You just can't, it will penalise someone who complied with the rules and that is idiotic.

peckstar · 11 Mar 2016, 02:12 (Ref:3622024)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denosaur

I must have missed the call, but did the race get called on time?? If so, then any race called on time should then have the fuel drop rule suspended.

My sliding scale idea has obviously struck a nerve, but if you're calling a race on time, then it must be for a reasons, such as extended safety car periods or red flag situation.

Bit like NASCAR green-white-checkered flag rule. If the lead see's the white, and an incident occurs after that, then the race will be finished as the leader comes around for the checkered. Back under yellow if the incident occurs before the white.

In this case, with the red flag stoppage and weather conditions pointing to a reduced race pace, they would have known that the race wouldn't have finished on time, so they could have called it then saying that the fuel drop rule has been suspended, and teams are free to play out whatever strategies they have in place. If that results in another pit stop, then so be it. Bit like getting caught out by a safety car period, when you've got a strategy in place hoping that one doesn't happen.

I'd say we wouldn't be having this discussion if it was a dry race, run full length and it was found in post-inspection that those teams failed. We be discussing how ethics of the team in question for cheating.....

yes it got called on time (rather than laps), but before it went red Nick had already made his final pit stop, So he would have been punished for making that stop at exactly the same lap James Courtney made his stop last year.

you cant have variable rules once the race starts, they have to be the same for everyone

and i agree, we wouldnt have been having this discusion, but we had something happened that hasnt happened before, the rules however were applied consitantly

but here's another question would we being having this same discussion if Lowndes or SVG had filled their car on lap 42 and went on and won? Which was something that could have just as easily happened

one five five · 11 Mar 2016, 06:06 (Ref:3622055)

Quote:

Originally Posted by peckstar

and the truth is that you dont know if its still a parity measure, doubtful anyone does, but i agree in that in the ideal world we wouldnt have it

did you watch Inside Supercars last Tuesday?

Neil Crompton mentions that the engines are regularly tested and the gaps that were there in the past with fuel economy are not there anymore.

Lets get back to proper races without these gimmicks

Umai Naa · 11 Mar 2016, 08:20 (Ref:3622078)

Hopefully the upcoming Commission meeting sees sense inndumping the Fuel Drop practice from future events.