[LM24] Prototypes at Le Mans

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by lj79

Why is everyone so p**sed with SS_Collins?......

Nobody is p**sed with SS_Collins!

All power to him for expressing a bold opinion which on this occasion has left him out on a limb! There's nothing wrong with a bit of healthy disagreement.

But there is currently a real momentum within the prototype categories which weighs heavily against the opinion he has expressed (and I refer to his first post on the Panoz LMP1 thread). The number of prototype projects which have seen completion over the last couple of years is simply staggering (and this trend shows no sign of letting up).

I sincerely hope he has not taken my or any other members comments personally since that is not the aim, nor is it the purpose of this forum. We are all fans sharing a similar passion for a sport we all love.

[The Badger]

One of the reasons why I love sportscar racing is because of the prototypes ..... there is no other series in the world with such exciting cars . Sure the GT1 & GT2 classes have some great battles but they look like something you can see on the road . Maybe the idea should be (my idea) leave the prototypes up to the manufacturers , because as we have seen over the past few years with respect to Audi , they have the wedge to throw at it . Some of the private teams have put up a magic performance against but rarely have beaten them . Just look at the Audi gearbox change for example ..... How could Rollcentre or Courage or Zytek compete against that level of technology ..... or ..... create a rule that says that a certain amount of chassis should be made available to privateers and I dont mean that the privateer will get "last years" chassis or last years mods . Remember Joest 956-117 beating the works team in 84 and winning again in 85 and almost in 86 . That was one over porsche and healthy for the sport too IMO .....

I for one hope that the prototypes are here to stay ..... Im sure they will !!! I think its just another transition thing ....

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

I read it as opinion - nothing wrong with that at all

There are of course plenty of programmes and projects that fell by the wayside - There are plenty of others though that came to fruition despite the sceptics.

I approach most new projects with a healthy dose of realism but i'm still enough of a fence hanging fan to get excited by the prospects of something new - And there's plenty out there that looks like seeing the light of day.

i too share your optimistic realism Graham... loved your article by the way, its exactly the way i see it and although i am not privy to some of your information about future projects, i see nothing but smooth sailing on the horizon for the LMP2 class.

[vs346]

sportscar racing has always ebbed and flowed. Most recently, in 1994, everyone was talking like we would never see a prototype again with the GT1s coming along (Mclaren, then Porsche GT1s, Toyota, Nissan) then Audi and BMW came around with an open top prototype and that was the new wave. Although come to think of it, weren't the Nissans and Toyotas and Mercedes really just covered prototypes?

Even if GT1 gets all the future short term attention from manufacturers, prototypes will always come back at some point. I think part of the reason is nobody really knows if a covered GT1 or an open LMP1 is the better, more efficient way to win LM.

[JAG]

When the GT1s hit the scene first time round in the early 90s, there was no closed prototype option open to manufactuers, so they had to bend the rules and effectively build closed prototypes that were homologated as GT1 cars.

Of course GT1 morphed into LMGTP and now LMP1, and LMP2 for that matter, allow both open and closed cars. So if a manufactuer like Toyota came back to Le Mans to win, they would always choose the LMP1 option.

And lets not forget the GT1's these days do not have the performance to compete for overall wins, unlike in the 90s.

Manufactuers can now also race there LMPs in Europe, in the LMES, which was not an option open to them in the 90s, even in the FIA SCC. It was BPR/FIA GT's or nothing!

BTW, some potentially very exciting LMP news from the US on DSC!

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by vs346

sportscar racing has always ebbed and flowed. Most recently, in 1994, everyone was talking like we would never see a prototype again with the GT1s coming along (Mclaren, then Porsche GT1s, Toyota, Nissan) then Audi and BMW came around with an open top prototype and that was the new wave. Although come to think of it, weren't the Nissans and Toyotas and Mercedes really just covered prototypes?

Even if GT1 gets all the future short term attention from manufacturers, prototypes will always come back at some point. I think part of the reason is nobody really knows if a covered GT1 or an open LMP1 is the better, more efficient way to win LM.

this is what people need to realize... the current LMP1 situation is based largely on the effects of the new regs coming online. the manufacturers have played the wait-and-see game and can guarantee that there will be AT LEAST 2 new LMP1 manufacturers on the grid, not to mention the wealth of new privateer LMP1s to fill the void of the to-be obsolete LMP900 and LMP675 cars.

[krt917]

Originally Posted by Fab

As long as the 24 hours of Le Mans are ruled by ACO, there will be prototypes. For the worst and for the best. Prototypes are the basis of endurance as ACO thinks it should be, from the start in 1923.

Agree that there should be prototypes, but I think you're pushing it a bit to say the cars there in 1923 were prototypes. The early years generally saw road cars that were run for 24 hours. Indeed, the early Le Mans races ran at a time when it was difficult to tell the difference between a sports car and touring car (in the true senses of the word). For example, the Alfa 8C 2300 was considered a sports car, the Talbot 105 a touring car (though perhaps more accurateley a 'grand touring' car, though we're on to shakey ground there!), but both ran at Le Mans

Originally Posted by vs346

sportscar racing has always ebbed and flowed.

I agree completely. GTs and Prototypes have always had their highs and lows, sometimes at different times, and both have survived one way or another.

Personally, I'd like to see the big names like Porsche and Astons running prototypes (against smaller outfits) AND GT entries. However, in the current (F1-dominated) climate that would probably be considered too expensive by the manufacturers.

[Fab]

Originally Posted by krt917

Agree that there should be prototypes, but I think you're pushing it a bit to say the cars there in 1923 were prototypes.

Re-reading my post, yes.

In the spirit, the idea was to encourage new things on cars... far from prototypes, but it led quite fast to "unique" cars, then prototypes...

Well, without pushing so far, I still can confirm that the ACO's motto is : "win should go to prototypes".

[ss_collins]

Wow what a response... I'm looking forward to the response the article will get.

My point of view is an open one - but my suggestion is based on a few factors mostly influenced by german beer in a too long wait for a plane! (Gi_Gav knows what I mean!)

First some speculation - the way I heard the tale (pre MN) was that the P2 the they have built will also be the P1 with a different engine. This sounds like Porsche are hedging thier bets, perhaps knowing something we don't

One of the rumoured reasons the 2000 Porsche never saw the light of day (well in public at least) was that the family decided that Porsche and Audi were not to go head to head. Perhaps the Audi R9/R10 will go the same way as the Porsche - or perhaps the R9/R10 IS the Porsche. Last I heard of it Audi were considering making it diesel (must be rubbish that... mustn't it??)

The other rumoured (Major) manufacturers looking at LM have gone quiet, apart from Ford who went GTS with Aston.

So my suggestion is this... drop LMP1 totally, allow old P1 cars to be converted to P2 spec. P2 and GTS equalised to be a joint top class. Leaving LM with just 3 classes. If the ACO were to make this move in the next 6 months its would give time for any new prototypes that may or may not exist to be developed to P2 spec. Bear in mind just how old the Audi actually is... are Audi interested any more or are they reducing involvement to allow Porsche thier glory in 07.

for my full opinion and those of others I'll be speaking too you'll have to wait and see but I watch this debate with much interest. Bear in mind this is more specualtion and opinion than any firm facts - rather like a lot of the manufacturers that could be doing LM in 06 or 07.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

The other rumoured (Major) manufacturers looking at LM have gone quiet, apart from Ford who went GTS with Aston.

You could be right about the major manufacturers getting cold feet. But as long as there are companys like Courage, Lola, Lister etc who have the ability to build chassis and companys like Judd, Elan, etc to make a engine and teams that are able to run the cars then LMP1 or whatever you call the fastest class in years to come, it will survive.

Not sure I buy the Audi - Porsche family connection. The companies, while being connected via family are 2 very seperate beasts. IMHO, the reason the 2000 car never saw the light of day at a race meeting was the cayanne being launched and Porsche being able to see the current class of cars was in a downward spiral, and the Audi being a very very good car.

[ss_collins]

the Cayenne rumour was one the I think Porsche backed up, but then there was also talk of them doing Nascar and the whole Audi thing. Which do I buy? the Cayenne but perhaps the descision to kill a project at such a late stage as they did in 2000 was influenced by Igolstadt? Speculation ands opinion as I say.

But Courage, Lola, Lister, Judd, Elan, Tampoli, Debora, WR... not Ferrari, Porsche, Ford, GM exactly is it? I'm sure the ACO want the manufacturers back rather than the racing specialists. But what is keeping them away - rules instability or fear of Audi domination?

Is perhaps the Maserati a pointer to a new top class (or was that just the sound of a can full o' worms opening)

[Fab]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I'm sure the ACO want the manufacturers back

Certainly.

Originally Posted by ss_collins

rather than the racing specialists.

I don't think so...

Originally Posted by ss_collins

But what is keeping them away - rules instability or fear of Audi domination?

Exposure : Renault is not interrested by LM because it does not expose the brand enough ; that's why they don't have a french pilot as well. They explicitaly said that the "need to sale cars". Peugeot and Citroën as well. The worst thing for them : indifference of the public ; and not the french one : they don't give a damn. The big markets : China (Asia) and America.

For the others : I'd mention investment and commitment, possibly to beat Audi, maybe.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

But Courage, Lola, Lister, Judd, Elan, Tampoli, Debora, WR... not Ferrari, Porsche, Ford, GM exactly is it? I'm sure the ACO want the manufacturers back rather than the racing specialists.

In some ways that depends on the what engines find there way into the chassis, maybe the Belmondo Courage Ford & the Rollcentre Nissan could be the way forward. If the big manufacturers don't want to provide the complete car, maybe engine deals?

A good case could be made that having the big names just leads to sprialing costs and the boom bust cycle sportscars always seems to follow. A more controlled way forward may be the Grand Am route, (only faster and better looking) the chassis come from the indepents who then choose from a range of engines. The car companys get the credit if the engine wins, but can remain out of the lime light if it fails in a big way.

[JAG]

The only things that have kept manufactuers away from protoyes in recent years have been the wait for the new regs and the success of F1.

F1 is not the be all and end all it once was, so expect manufactuers to leave before any new ones join.

As for the LMP regs, they have only been in place for just over 12 months and even specialist manufactuers have only now started to role out their LMP2 cars, with LMP1s to follow next year. It will obviouslly take longer for the cars to hit the track from the major manufacuers, what with board approval etc.

People more in the know than me are convinced at least two, possibly more, major manufactuers will enter LMP1 in the next 12 months. Nothings been seen yet, but I have no doubt things are happening behind the scene.

Who could we see?

Audi, Porsche, Peugeot, Nissan, Mazda, BMW, Chrysler, who knows?

Oh, and I don't think we can underestimate the influence the LMES will have on whether manufactuers give the green light to prototype programs. It is extremely important that manufactuers can race their cars in a high profile European series, outside of Le Mans.

As for GT1 only Maserati and GM have true works teams. The rest are either pure customer cars or semi-works affiars such as Aston Martin, were Ford do not actually pay the bills for the project!

These projects were given the go ahead at least 18 months ago when their was still an outside chace, or so some believed, that GTS/GT1 cars could once again compete for overall wins!

[jhansen]

I dunno, I tend to disagree with you JAG on the point that the manufacturers want to race in a European based series outside of Le Mans. Let's face it, Le Mans is the only real goal of the manufacturers. The more logical choice for exposure in terms of a racing series is the ALMS. The ALMS provides a much larger market with better TV exposure. However, only Audi has taken advantage of that in recent years.

This only strengthens my belief that prototypes have a future at Le Mans. The manufacturers want to win Le Mans. And as long as the LMP1 class is the top dawg we will see the manufacturers winning there. The only thing that has kept them out right now is the rules transition.

And ss_collins, I don't see how the manufacturers can be scared of Audi domination. There are five big manufacturers that are spending a TON of money trying to knock off Ferrari in Formula 1. I'm sure they are getting weary, but it certainly has not prevented them from trying. Audi is tops right now, but aside from Bently (which is a VAG product), nobody has made a serious attempt at knocking them off recently. The lack of effort doesn't mean it can't be done.

[JAG]

Le Mans is the number one goal obviously, but I don't think you can underestimate the need to race over a complete season, especially when you look at the costs of developing a car in the first place. National importers such as Audi UK/France/Spain etc. may well contribute some budget to a program if there is a race in there own backyard.

As for racing in the ALMS, thats all well and good for Audi, Porsche, BMW, but what about Peugeot, Renault, Alfa etc. who don't have much, if any presence in the US.

[Fab]

Originally Posted by JAG

Le Mans is the number one goal obviously, but I don't think you can underestimate the need to race over a complete season, especially when you look at the costs of developing a car in the first place.

That's Henri Pescarolo's point. And Yves Courage' too, if I can remember.

[tblincoe]

for my 1,000th post i will say this:

the subject of the relative absence of LMP1 manufacturer support over the last couple of years is caused in very large part by the new regs coming online... various sporting directors have publicly said they are playing the "wait and see" game to make sure the regs are final and stable before building a new prototype, and this makes total and absolute sense. nobody wants to go through a fiasco such as maserati has experienced with the MC12 in GT1.

manufacturer support, as is the case with any major motorsport series, will fluctuate greatly over a period of time. what is important that there is that there is privateer support and in this area sportscars are doing just fine. the next generation of LMP1 and LMP2 cars are going to be well-sorted and very competitive machines, learning from the success and failures of the first generation LMP900s and LMP675s.

as long as we have the likes of Courage, Riley, Lola, Dome (who is now going to a factory program as well), Lister, etc. building competitve chassis for privateers i think that the future looks bright and that there is no need for judgement on the LMP1 class until the middle-end of the 2006 season at the earliest.

[jhansen]

Quote from Fab: "That's Henri Pescarolo's point. And Yves Courage' too, if I can remember."

My point was not directed at privateers like Pescarolo and chassis builders who's product is intended for privateers like Courage. Europe's top privateer prototype teams obviously need a place to compete and the LMES fits the bill nicely.