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Old 27 Jan 2015, 05:32 (Ref:3497882)   #31
Chappelli
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Originally Posted by RogerH View Post
When you look at the entrant and spectator numbers at the top Classic meetings, they are not indicative of a sport in crisis. By comparison the entrant and spectator numbers at Tier 1 are pathetic but I don't think it is reflective of disinterest in the sport - just disinterest in the Tier 1 product.
The problem is, 30 years ago the silver haired mob you see at Classic meetings were young-ish dudes piling into the back of a PB Vauxhall to join the throngs of other young dudes on the Hill at Pukekohe...... Fast forward thirty years from now they'll all be dead and today's pathetic Tier 1 will be a pathetic classic crowd....

Small Blacks TV isn't produced by the NZRU because they want to get more Kids to test matches.... It's produced to get more kids to want to go to test matches rather than Basketball matches.
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Old 27 Jan 2015, 06:45 (Ref:3497891)   #32
Bill Brown
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Originally Posted by Mark Petch View Post
Wrong Bill, yes you were technically a director of TMC, but you like most people were kept in the dark. Martin Fine ran TMC like a Fiefdom, you and MSNZ were deliberately kept in the dark and if you say that you knew everything that went on, then frankly you are as guilty as Martin Fine and co in trading whilst insolvent. I don't think you knew the truth of the situation you were just guilty of being to loyal.

You question you need to ask yourself is, why there was a break away in the first place? If you were really interested in knowing why, you would then understand what lead to that breakaway in the first place. I am not going to air the dirty laundry in a public place but more that happy to show you the volume's of evidence we amassed back then.
Mark all I was trying to point out is what went wrong perhaps more from a Joe Public spectator point of view.

All the politics, infighting and bulls**t was not generally public when the Series was going downhill.
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Old 27 Jan 2015, 06:58 (Ref:3497892)   #33
RogerH
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RogerH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridRogerH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Chappelli View Post
The problem is, 30 years ago the silver haired mob you see at Classic meetings were young-ish dudes piling into the back of a PB Vauxhall to join the throngs of other young dudes on the Hill at Pukekohe...... Fast forward thirty years from now they'll all be dead and today's pathetic Tier 1 will be a pathetic classic crowd....

Small Blacks TV isn't produced by the NZRU because they want to get more Kids to test matches.... It's produced to get more kids to want to go to test matches rather than Basketball matches.
You are probably right that the Classic fraternity is predominantly guys on the downside of 50 years old that aren't going to be active forever.

Another example of the positive latent interest in the sport is the success of the 2K Cup (a non-MSNZ initiative). We ran a one day club meeting in December and had 86 entrants just for the 2K Cup grid. Most of these were entrants new to the sport who were just looking for the opportunity to compete at a level that didn't break the budget. Maybe we need to concentrate at this level to convert the potential competitors lurking out there and get the ex-karters to move to the first level of circuit racing in a format that is competitive and financially achievable.
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Old 27 Jan 2015, 07:53 (Ref:3497901)   #34
Mark Petch
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Originally Posted by Bill Brown View Post
Mark all I was trying to point out is what went wrong perhaps more from a Joe Public spectator point of view.

All the politics, infighting and bulls**t was not generally public when the Series was going downhill.
Fair enough Bill, you are correct in saying that when the series was going downhill the shite-fight [because of what was happening] was behind closed door's.

However, you also know that it was Martin Fine backed by MSNZ, who fought us all the way to court in a very public matter, using what was was left of NZV8, etc, that tore the class's apart in a far more public way that should have ever have happened.

Lets, just suppose that MSNZ had embraced V8ST when they turned up on the grid for their very first race at Hampton Downs, with 16 Car's, and didn't get commercially involved with advancing monies to NZV8, owning the IP to the TLX car etc.

The Joe public spectator would have thought wow awesome man just look at those car's etc.

I am not suggesting that the above scenario would have fixed the current problem, because at Tier One level it's basically unfixable, at least from a spectator point of view. Never the less, if MSNZ had of possessed the nounce to 'Glue' everything together, instead of buying into Martin's favorite tactic of "Divide and Conquer" we would be in a lot better shape than we are in now.
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Old 27 Jan 2015, 20:56 (Ref:3498086)   #35
Goat Boy
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Goat Boy has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Amen to that!
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Old 28 Jan 2015, 07:40 (Ref:3498210)   #36
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promax has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
if ST didn't try to bury NZV8.. we would be in a lot better shape than we are in now. it wasn't just one side that tried to use the 'Divide and Conquer' approach.
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Old 28 Jan 2015, 07:55 (Ref:3498216)   #37
Mark Petch
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if ST didn't try to bury NZV8.. we would be in a lot better shape than we are in now. it wasn't just one side that tried to use the 'Divide and Conquer' approach.



If only you knew the truth Promax.
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Old 28 Jan 2015, 18:08 (Ref:3498342)   #38
Icarus_nz
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Icarus_nz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridIcarus_nz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
At the point that the sport appeared strongest it was rotten to the core.

After 30 years in the sport I haven't bothered to renew my club membership or license. It's the only 'vote' I'm allowed.
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Old 28 Jan 2015, 20:05 (Ref:3498391)   #39
Ugy
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Ambush, divide and conquer and then chase your own tail.
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Old 28 Jan 2015, 20:10 (Ref:3498392)   #40
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So we had one V8 series with ageing cars, but the grids were full and the public supported it.
Then a renegade bunch decided they would split away and reinvent the wheel.
This new series would be nirvana and all who did not join would be destroyed by its popularity.
But it cost too much, it divided the purist fans and has curtailed the careers of almost all of those well known racers that the public followed.

And now it's MSNZ fault for not gluing the series back together? Huh?
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Old 28 Jan 2015, 20:33 (Ref:3498404)   #41
Mark Petch
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Mark Petch should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Icarus_nz View Post
At the point that the sport appeared strongest it was rotten to the core.

After 30 years in the sport I haven't bothered to renew my club membership or license. It's the only 'vote' I'm allowed.

Exactly, Icarus, and through out this sorry saga MSNZ acted in the same manner as what is referred to by Psychologists as the "ostrich problem" - and the rest is history.
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Old 28 Jan 2015, 20:36 (Ref:3498407)   #42
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Originally Posted by BlueBlood View Post
So we had one V8 series with ageing cars, but the grids were full and the public supported it.
Then a renegade bunch decided they would split away and reinvent the wheel.
This new series would be nirvana and all who did not join would be destroyed by its popularity.
But it cost too much, it divided the purist fans and has curtailed the careers of almost all of those well known racers that the public followed.

And now it's MSNZ fault for not gluing the series back together? Huh?
c'mon blue.. you know it's always the other's sides fault
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Old 28 Jan 2015, 21:05 (Ref:3498419)   #43
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socram should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsocram should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
To get back on track, what is the fix for tier 1 - or do we dump the name altogether and start again?

I'd suggest that any a top level meeting needs a mix, therefore, to restart the ball rolling my suggestion is a basic format:

1) A decent single seater grid - personally, I'd rather watch a grid of noisy F5000's than TRS, but I'll accept that the TRS is supposedly our top class. Decent also means numbers, so that could just as easily be Formula Fords or even a Formula Libre grid, as there must be so many fairly quick redundant single seaters around that should be out racing. Someone just needs to step up and encourage them to keep running.

2) A GT grid of some sort - which adds glamour and exotica. Or, maybe substitute for open race saloons such as the old OSCA/TRANSAM.

3) A large (production) saloons grid, whereby I'd rather see all the current V8 saloons lumped together to make one decent grid. Class racing has been going for 100 years. If it also needs a 2 or 3 litre class, to boost numbers so be it.

4) Just one, Utes grid (if you must) - sorry, more than one grid of utes is not going to attract the punters. It can be Ssang Yong at some rounds, Holden/Ford at others if it is has to be part of the current fabric of racing.

5) Probably one of the Muscle car grids - and it doesn't need to be a national series - different groups at different events is fine. The punters don't care, but you have to cut out a fair bit of the costs and that means minimal or no island hopping.

The balance at any meeting should then be left to the host club, but whatever happens, if you can't get a minimum of 150 cars, it just can't be a top level meeting.

I'm no great fan of modern one make/model racing and they haven't come up with the numbers to justify inclusion. Even the MSNZ dictate of 15 cars isn't enough. So no room for Toyota 86's, Suzuki Swifts or Minis or any other thinly disguised 'advertising budget spend'.

Any two day meeting can therefore have a different flavour according to the hosts. If they want to run the remainder of their grids for U2K Cup, Porsche. Alfa, Classics, Austin 7's or Porsches, relay races, endurance races, karts, Reliant Robins, it should be their choice, but the same bland, tiny grids are not now and never have been a spectator or sponsor draw card.

Over to the rest of you. Move forwards with a plan or a suggestion, as there is nothing to be gained from airing the dirty washing again.
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Old 29 Jan 2015, 01:06 (Ref:3498508)   #44
Samwhk
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Samwhk should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by socram View Post
To get back on track, what is the fix for tier 1 - or do we dump the name altogether and start again?

I'd suggest that any a top level meeting needs a mix, therefore, to restart the ball rolling my suggestion is a basic format:

1) A decent single seater grid - personally, I'd rather watch a grid of noisy F5000's than TRS, but I'll accept that the TRS is supposedly our top class. Decent also means numbers, so that could just as easily be Formula Fords or even a Formula Libre grid, as there must be so many fairly quick redundant single seaters around that should be out racing. Someone just needs to step up and encourage them to keep running.

2) A GT grid of some sort - which adds glamour and exotica. Or, maybe substitute for open race saloons such as the old OSCA/TRANSAM.

3) A large (production) saloons grid, whereby I'd rather see all the current V8 saloons lumped together to make one decent grid. Class racing has been going for 100 years. If it also needs a 2 or 3 litre class, to boost numbers so be it.

4) Just one, Utes grid (if you must) - sorry, more than one grid of utes is not going to attract the punters. It can be Ssang Yong at some rounds, Holden/Ford at others if it is has to be part of the current fabric of racing.

5) Probably one of the Muscle car grids - and it doesn't need to be a national series - different groups at different events is fine. The punters don't care, but you have to cut out a fair bit of the costs and that means minimal or no island hopping.

The balance at any meeting should then be left to the host club, but whatever happens, if you can't get a minimum of 150 cars, it just can't be a top level meeting.

I'm no great fan of modern one make/model racing and they haven't come up with the numbers to justify inclusion. Even the MSNZ dictate of 15 cars isn't enough. So no room for Toyota 86's, Suzuki Swifts or Minis or any other thinly disguised 'advertising budget spend'.

Any two day meeting can therefore have a different flavour according to the hosts. If they want to run the remainder of their grids for U2K Cup, Porsche. Alfa, Classics, Austin 7's or Porsches, relay races, endurance races, karts, Reliant Robins, it should be their choice, but the same bland, tiny grids are not now and never have been a spectator or sponsor draw card.

Over to the rest of you. Move forwards with a plan or a suggestion, as there is nothing to be gained from airing the dirty washing again.
Now THAT sounds like a series I could get behind.
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Old 29 Jan 2015, 04:35 (Ref:3498555)   #45
Goat Boy
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Goat Boy has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I love the Muscle Cars, any form is good.
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