Diagnosing a damaged cylinder head gasket

[Sharky]

Originally Posted by Bluebottle

I'll let you off this time

Me very mucho sorry. Me no speak spanish. English speak me now. Me english very good speak!

Sorry about that Bluebottle. Just complementing mr. bear on his excellent foreign language skills. Won't happen again though

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Bluebottle

I'll let you off this time

Thanks. I really have to say this to "Sharkey" as it is important:

¡Peligro! ¡Peligro! ¡Tenga cuidado!

Make sure you disconnect BOTH battery leads as the "RED" wire may be the POSITIVE one. You could learn to "Arc Weld" without help.

[Sharky]

Sigh. I just came from my mechanic and it is now confirmed. The gasket is broken. It turns out that the corrosion is caused by coolant leaking out of the engine. I guess that's that.

Anyway, thanks a lot thebear. You've been extremely helpful and very kind. And I learned a lot that I wouldn't have otherwise.

So I'll just go and raise the money I need now.

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Sharky

Sigh. I just came from my mechanic and it is now confirmed. The gasket is broken. It turns out that the corrosion is caused by coolant leaking out of the engine. I guess that's that.

HOWEVER: Be sure that it is a gasket and not a `freeze plug'. Freeze plugs are `saftey devices', steel disks ~Ø30mm x ~3mm that are pressed into appropriate places on the sides and ends of the engine block. In the event of a `hard freeze' they pop out and preserve the block casting. As you have stated that you do not always use anti-freeze, unless your coolant was something other than plain water, a corroded/rusted/leaky freeze plug is a definite possibility.

?? ??

[Sharky]

No, I checked and there aren't any seals leaking. It's directly leaking from where the engine block meets the air manifold. That means that in the best case scenario they will have to disassemble the complete air intake system to replace the manifold seals which is more than halfway through to the head gasket. Hence it's better to do it anyway and avoid having to go back to take the whole overhead apart to replace just the head gasket. Besides, it will give me the chance to replace the timing belt (which was due in 2500km anyway), clean the ground connection, calibrate the valves, clean the air intake manifold and general maintenance. My mechanic says that given the age of the car, the number of overheating cases it’s had and the delicate nature of this particular gasket it is surely damaged or at least very close to it’s final days so I might as well just replace it now that most of the disassembling will have to be done anyway.

Besides, it is not AS expensive as I thought. With parts and labor (including the timing belt) it will set me back about US$120 which is still a lot of money for my budget but it's not as bad as I first thought.

I might wait a while before doing it though. I’ll probably get a few more kilometers on the old timing belt before replacing.

Anyway, once again thanks a lot. Not so much for the help diagnosing the problem but for everything I learned during the process.

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Sharky

Besides, it is not AS expensive as I thought. With parts and labor (including the timing belt) it will set me back about US$120 which is still a lot of money for my budget but it's not as bad as I first thought.

A real bargain! It would be at least FOUR time that much here in the US!

Originally Posted by Sharky

Anyway, once again thanks a lot. Not so much for the help diagnosing the problem but for everything I learned during the process.

There will be a short quiz next Friday!

[Sharky]

Hey thebear. Just wanted to let you know that I finally found enough money to fix the car. Took the engine appart yesterday and sure enough, the gasket was irtually destroyed. Completely rotten and full of holes. Let's just hope the probles is finally solved.

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Sharky

Hey thebear. Just wanted to let you know that I finally found enough money to fix the car. Took the engine appart yesterday and sure enough, the gasket was irtually destroyed. Completely rotten and full of holes. Let's just hope the probles is finally solved.

I was wondering if it had left you stranded by the side of the road. What kind of car have "we" been working on?

[Sharky]

He he he. 1996 Peugeot 205 Gri (1.1l). No, you helped me a lot but I was in a bit of financial crisis so there wan't any money to fix it. Actually....I'm still in financial crisis....

[Sharky]

Here are some pictures I took from the old gasket:

http://pwp.etb.net.co/chsoto/DSCF0784.JPG
http://pwp.etb.net.co/chsoto/DSCF0783.JPG
http://pwp.etb.net.co/chsoto/DSCF0782.JPG

Looks pretty bad doesn't it?

[Sharky]

Mmmh. Well so far so good. I haven't had any problems so far but today I noticed something a bit strange. My car's radiator fan is independent of the ignition switch. Today when I got out of the car I noticed that the fan kept on running for a while longer that it used to. The fan switch is very close to the hose that comes from the upper part of the engine as the picture below shows:

http://pwp.etb.net.co/chsoto/cool.jpg

Now, I went to take a look and that hose was VERY hot as was that side of the radiator although the rest was pretty cool by now. Later I decided to run a check immediately after I turned off the car. The radiator was hot, the hose and that side was boiling hot and the other hose(which is connected to the lower part of the other side of the radiator) was hot. Afterwards the radiator cooled down but that side was still hot. The fan eventually switched off after almost 4 minutes but that side of the radiator still felt pretty hot.

Now, I'm assuming that hot water from the engine comes from the upper hose and comes back into the engine through the lower hose and since both were warm I'm assuming that water is flowing normally through the radiator. Also, the fan never switched to high speed so there doesn't seem to be an indication of overheating. I'm also aware that since the engine isn't running the water pump isn't either so the water near the switch might take longer to cool that that within the radiator. But it didn't use to take so long. 1.5 maybe 2 minutes tops. Could a new head gasket (and perhaps new coolant) explain this?

BTW, what did you think about the old gasket?

As always, many thanks

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Sharky

Mmmh. Well so far so good. I haven't had any problems so far but today I noticed something a bit strange. My car's radiator fan is independent of the ignition switch. Today when I got out of the car I noticed that the fan kept on running for a while longer that it used to. The fan switch is very close to the hose that comes from the upper part of the engine as the picture below shows:

http://pwp.etb.net.co/chsoto/cool.jpg

Now, I went to take a look and that hose was VERY hot as was that side of the radiator although the rest was pretty cool by now. Later I decided to run a check immediately after I turned off the car. The radiator was hot, the hose and that side was boiling hot and the other hose(which is connected to the lower part of the other side of the radiator) was hot. Afterwards the radiator cooled down but that side was still hot. The fan eventually switched off after almost 4 minutes but that side of the radiator still felt pretty hot.

Now, I'm assuming that hot water from the engine comes from the upper hose and comes back into the engine through the lower hose and since both were warm I'm assuming that water is flowing normally through the radiator. Also, the fan never switched to high speed so there doesn't seem to be an indication of overheating. I'm also aware that since the engine isn't running the water pump isn't either so the water near the switch might take longer to cool that that within the radiator. But it didn't use to take so long. 1.5 maybe 2 minutes tops. Could a new head gasket (and perhaps new coolant) explain this?

BTW, what did you think about the old gasket?

As always, many thanks

1. None of the images could be viewed using the links provided.
2. The coolant flow you described is normal.
3. I believe that it is now `Summer' in your hemisphere so that warmer operating condidtions will prevail. This would result in more residual heat when the engine is switched off. Another possibility is retarded timing.
4. It is necessary to have an actual measurement of the temperatures of the hoses. Any thermometer will do. Verify the temperatures with the engine running with those stated in your workshop manual so you can determine if the thermostat is functioning correctly.
5. Have you verified that you are no longer loosing coolant?
6. Was the thermostat replaced with a higher temperature one?
7. The thermostat may not be opening completly which can be caused by improper installation.
8. Was the radiator re-filled with water or a water anti-freeze mix?

[Sharky]

thebear! I thought you probably were fed up with my mechanical dramas. he he he

1. Mhh. Perhaps the image hosting server was down at the time. Do try again. if it doesn't work I'll load them somewhere else.
2. Fine.
3. Actually the city where I live still is on the northern hemisphere although very close to the equator. So there aren't really any seasons. We just have dry season and wet season. We're currently in the "dry" season and it's raining cats and dogs every day . Added to that, living at 2600 meters above sea level, temperatures are low all year round, and with all this rain, they are particularly low at the moment.
4. Mhh, I'll have to check because the only thermometer I can get a hold of is a medical thermometer and it doesn't have the proper scale.
5. So far so good. The bottle level hasn't gone down.
6. Thermostat was unchanged.
7. There haven't been signs of a faulty thermostat so far though. No overheating and I've load tested the car a bit since the repair.
8. Purely anti-freezze which comes already mixed with water. Actually it is a "peak" brand anti-freeze (blue bottle with a snowy mountain on the label).

Perhaps I've been a bit paranoid because it's been shutting down correctly during the past few days. Perhaps it just took longer that time.

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Sharky

thebear! I thought you probably were fed up with my mechanical dramas. he he he Perhaps I've been a bit paranoid because it's been shutting down correctly during the past few days. Perhaps it just took longer that time.

Or perhaps the car "missed me" and wanted attention.

[Sharky]

ha ha ha. Perhaps you should adopt the car. Be some sort of stepfather.

BTW, did the pics finally work?

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Sharky

BTW, did the pics finally work?

no. "Page can not be displayed".

[Sharky]

Mhhh. Let's try again. I uploaded them into my university's server:

http://wwwest.uniandes.edu.co/~c-soto/1.jpg
http://wwwest.uniandes.edu.co/~c-soto/2.jpg
http://wwwest.uniandes.edu.co/~c-soto/3.jpg

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Sharky

Mhhh. Let's try again. I uploaded them into my university's server:

Same.

Have any of you "Lurkers" out there been able to view the pix?

Talk to us, please.

[Sharky]

Argh! OK. Here's the one that can't fail. Download the zip file located at:

http://s38.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1...Z1OF1L6PQGE27Y

If this doesn't work then.....

[Sharky]

Oh dear. The never ending saga continues. No, it wasn't me; the fan IS taking a lot longer to turn off. A couple of days ago as I was walking from the car to my building's elevator I noticed that the fan switched off but 5 seconds later it switched back on again. "That’s odd" I thought to myself but I didn't pay much attention. But today, as I prepared to head back home from work the car didn't start. It seems that the battery was drained. Funny because I hadn't left the lights on or anything like that....wait a minute....I bet it was the fan.

Came home, parked and turned off the car. The fan kept on going. Waited for a while, went up to my apartment for an address and when I came down it was still running. I then opened the hood and jiggled it a while to see if it would turn off but no. Finally I unplugged the fan from the radiator switch and plugged it back immediately and voila!

I know the causes are pretty obvious but, just to be sure, is the fan switch which is connected to the radiator damaged?

Back when I bought the car (second hand some 6 years ago) I had the same problem. The fan would not turn off and it eventually killed the battery. I changed the switch and it all worked fine....until now....

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Sharky

Oh dear. The never ending saga continues. . . . Finally I unplugged the fan from the radiator switch and plugged it back immediately and voila!

I know the causes are pretty obvious but, just to be sure, is the fan switch which is connected to the radiator damaged?

Back when I bought the car (second hand some 6 years ago) I had the same problem. The fan would not turn off and it eventually killed the battery. I changed the switch and it all worked fine....until now....

Como han conocido a nuestros amigos franceses para decir: Encoré un fois. (one more time).

Strange that the switch should `re-set' itself, UNLESS:

Remove the switch (should be easy?) and examine the `sealing method'. The photos from your manual show a `black blob' that I can not identify. Hopefully the switch is sealed. If there is any corrosion on the case, any seal/weld is suspect. The contacts draw an electrical arc and eventually pit and stick (that was a major ignition system maintenance problem before electrionic ignition became widespread ~1977) . The current flowing thru the higher resistance caused by the poor contact could generate enough heat to keep the switch in the closed position. When you unplug it, the current flow stops, everything cools off and is back to the open position when you re-connect.

How much is a new one? I can provide a POSSIBLE test sequence IF the switch is waterproof.

[Sharky]

No need the bear. Already bought the replacement and everything's working fine now. When I went to the dealer to buy it I took about 15 minutes and when I came back the fan was still running. And at my mechanic there was no need to short ciruit it to cool the water faster to replace it because it never switched off.

Let's just hope that this is the end of my cooling problems!!

BTW, did you ever get to see the photos?

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Sharky

Let's just hope that this is the end of my cooling problems!!

BTW, did you ever get to see the photos?

No.

[Sharky]

OK. Once again. Download the zip file at

http://s58.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3...Q1RPP95TGI25ML

Let me know if it works

[Bluebottle]

Works fine for me, and that gasket looks, how can I put it, shot to pieces!