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8 Jul 2017, 23:56 (Ref:3749675) | #976 | ||
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First reaction is that the drivers are going to have to climb in and out over the side pods as many struggle to step out of the cockpit over it's rim and clearing the bargeboards as it is.
Looking more carefully, It certainly wraps around more than the original images of the new shield, and is undoubtably more elegant that the Red Bull screen, but I still don't see how it would help with debris that is coming from an angle above the horizontal. The top of the helmet would appear to still be very exposed. It'll be interesting to see the trial one mounted on a real car and as said with a driver in it. |
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9 Jul 2017, 09:44 (Ref:3749721) | #977 | ||
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How do you test a safety device?
Will they use a launcher to chuck assorted debris, springs, tyres, fibreglass shreds at the driver as he flies down the Hangar Straight at 200mph? Can I nominate the driver? Seriously the only thing that can come out of it is how it affects the driver in the car, and his vision and ability to get in and out. in a hurry, and how the marshals can help in the event of a serious shunt. I can't believe they can ever find anyone foolish enough to drive these lethal projectiles, don't they realise that motor racing is dangerous? |
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9 Jul 2017, 09:44 (Ref:3749722) | #978 | ||
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But it still ends up being a farce for me. Its going to be closed cockpits sooner rather than later so I don't know why they dont just get on with it |
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9 Jul 2017, 16:14 (Ref:3749805) | #979 | |||
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9 Jul 2017, 17:49 (Ref:3749883) | #980 | |
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I think the fully enclosed cockpit should be designed by a 3rd party, like Lockheed or something.
Either that or define the cockpit dimensions in the regulations, they sure should make the cockpit area wider to fit it in. |
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9 Jul 2017, 18:19 (Ref:3749939) | #981 | |
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If you go fully closed cockpit, why does it need to be third party? We have fully closed racing prototypes that don't have standard roofs. I don't see the problem with extracting drivers, doors, etc. These are engineering problems that are already solved that people talk about like they're impossible.
The question is not if it's possible to run with these features - it most certainly is. The question is if this is the route F1 wants to go down. The engineering side of it is not a challenge and is already solved. F1 just needs to look outside of its own little bubble to see them. |
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9 Jul 2017, 19:38 (Ref:3750009) | #982 | |
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F1 looking outside of its own bubble is the biggest hurdle, as F1 always wants to reinvent the wheel, even if it doesn't work and/or makes the problem even worse.
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9 Jul 2017, 19:43 (Ref:3750012) | #983 | |
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Looks like the Halo has been put on the backburner and the shield is now the one that's looking like the future. Still needs more work IMHO
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10 Jul 2017, 10:36 (Ref:3750120) | #984 | |||
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10 Jul 2017, 11:51 (Ref:3750136) | #985 | ||
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Had Alonsos accident happened with a roof then the car would have rested against the wall and he'd have had more room to move about (since the car would've rested against the roof) and had the hatch to move through to exit. So unless F1 wants to intentionally design a bad canopy and roof system, the problems have been solved. |
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10 Jul 2017, 12:22 (Ref:3750152) | #986 | ||
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There is also the aerospace that I have suggested in this thread previously. That is the option of squibs within the "glass" canopy that can shatter the entire canopy, leaving as much room to get out or be extracted as an open cockpit.
Appropriate safeguards and triggering mechanisms of course |
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10 Jul 2017, 13:03 (Ref:3750168) | #987 | |||
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Secondly, Alonso had very little room to get out as it was, so if the car had a canopy how would Alonso have been able to open it, with the car up against the tyre wall? |
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10 Jul 2017, 13:17 (Ref:3750170) | #988 | ||
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However even on the assumption that we make a mini LMP cockpit, only as wide as the driver, why are we still talking about covering the car and lifting it off? I don't see why the entire canopy has to be lifted off. If you're encasing the driver in an LMP style canopy, then it suddenly has sides. Sides which can have hatches. We like to call them doors, but realistically they are closer to hatches than doors. There's a solution that's almost 10 years old that works. It can't just be copy and pasted, but it works. Have them open forward and backwards too. Have the hatches with quick releases on the inside rather than hinged if you'd prefer. There are MANY angles this can be taken rather than just a big solid canopy that lifts off vertically. Again - these engineering solutions already exist in other series. We've already had people suggest that rain would be a problem (take a look at your road car guys), misting would be a problem. Doors would be a problem. Hatches would be a problem. Problems that other series solved decades ago, F1 is absolutely determined to reinvent the wheel on. Every other series is using round wheels, so F1 might go down the hexagon route. If F1 is going down the closed cockpit route, the solutions do exist. The real question is whether or not F1 wants to go down that route. And it actually seems more like they'd rather half arse the solution than using the best one available. |
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10 Jul 2017, 14:04 (Ref:3750176) | #989 | ||
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10 Jul 2017, 15:59 (Ref:3750201) | #990 | ||
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the shield looks much much nicer than the Halo and some protection is better than none so i hope the shield proves to be acceptable enough to be implemented for next year.
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10 Jul 2017, 16:37 (Ref:3750215) | #991 | |
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People tend to get hung up on trying to engineering solutions that will solve ALL known and unknown problems current and future. Plus trying to solve using a single solution. For example a common one is... When car is in X position, how will the driver extract himself? That line of thinking has no reasonable path forward if the solution to all problems is always "self extraction".
I am sure we can generate conditions using both the current open and potentially future closed cockpits in which self extraction is impossible. Or rather... would be difficult to do without external help, or requires significant engineering burdens upon the design within the car. The Alonso example is a good one and I think the very recent Pascal Wehrlein Monaco example is good as well. Maybe self extraction in those and other cases may not be the answer? Combat fighters at 10's of thousands of feet have no "help" when things go wrong. So that is why complex ejections systems exist (explosive canopy release, rocket extraction from the aircraft, automatic parachute deployment, etc.). These cars are designed to race in a relatively controlled environment in which the overall safety goes beyond just the driver and the survival cell. Outside help does exist. So, design the solution so that the driver can self extricate in the vast majority of common scenarios (including some upside down scenarios). For the exceptional situations in which that may not be easily achieved (car is upside down, large fuel fire and another car or debris is piled on top. Or the car is deeply buried in a tire wall or some other structure. Or even straight up equipment failure of the egress system which prevents the canopy from opening) You should then rely upon alternative safety measures. That may include designs to enable a "shelter in place" strategy until on track help arrives. Frankly I see no other way around that. It is unlikely that any solution will solve all problem. As much as I dislike the non-canopy solutions, they clearly are taking this approach. They are trying to solve for a number of scenarios (generally intrusion from the front) that is less than all of the potential scenarios (intrusion from the top). My beef is that they are not solving for enough scenarios. And as always... it's good to point out again and again... All of this has generally been solved in other series. F1 loves to pretend they are so unique that their solution has to be unique as well. Just look to other series as to what has worked and what type of extraction scenarios have occurred. Richard |
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10 Jul 2017, 17:27 (Ref:3750221) | #992 | |
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Apparently Indycar have caught onto the idea and might be testing the shield soon
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10 Jul 2017, 18:28 (Ref:3750231) | #993 | ||
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Worth having a look. I'll wait for real photos of it.
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13 Jul 2017, 09:00 (Ref:3750875) | #994 | ||
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When did I do dangerous driving??? |
13 Jul 2017, 11:37 (Ref:3750904) | #995 | ||
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Richard |
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13 Jul 2017, 11:46 (Ref:3750906) | #996 | ||
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I mean, if you have that whole apparatus on the front of the car, surely you don't need to have bodywork under it, right? Would make it easier to get out of there was an open hole under the screen.
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13 Jul 2017, 15:55 (Ref:3750943) | #997 | ||
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There is also the practical nature in that it provides structure for attachment of steering wheel, etc. and having the a smaller hole in the structure helps it maintain its overall physical integrity. And lastly... it allows teams to not have to redesign the safety cell ($$$) if new features are additive. Clearly ANY solution will impact aero design. Richard |
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13 Jul 2017, 17:25 (Ref:3750966) | #998 | |
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report...-to-try-shield
Autosport with a photo. Still has plastic wrap on it. |
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13 Jul 2017, 17:26 (Ref:3750968) | #999 | ||
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13 Jul 2017, 18:42 (Ref:3750983) | #1000 | ||||
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(After loads of whinging or course ) Thanks |
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