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Old 22 Apr 2018, 10:24 (Ref:3816881)   #51
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Scotty Mac.
Decent lead in the championship now

But it doesnt take much to fall back

SVG, something not right there, team is no gelling

Erebus, loving there form, can it continue and Anton is doing a ripper job

Richie Stanaway, we know he can drive, but lack of experience in car setup is showing
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Old 22 Apr 2018, 22:11 (Ref:3816949)   #52
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chavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Whincup's penalty is yet another case of too many rules resulting in little or no benefit to the sport.

A pitlane speed limit is desirable but dictating how the teams adhere to the limit it grossly excessive rule making.

The desired outcome is to reduce speed in the pit lane - how the team achieve this, whether by a speed limiter, using engines revs, counting grid girls or using the Force should be left to the teams themselves to decide.
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Old 22 Apr 2018, 22:39 (Ref:3816950)   #53
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Originally Posted by chavez View Post
Whincup's penalty is yet another case of too many rules resulting in little or no benefit to the sport.

A pitlane speed limit is desirable but dictating how the teams adhere to the limit it grossly excessive rule making.

The desired outcome is to reduce speed in the pit lane - how the team achieve this, whether by a speed limiter, using engines revs, counting grid girls or using the Force should be left to the teams themselves to decide.

I agree, but he did accelerate to above the limit after disabling the limiter.
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Old 22 Apr 2018, 22:42 (Ref:3816951)   #54
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Whincup's penalty is yet another case of too many rules resulting in little or no benefit to the sport.

A pitlane speed limit is desirable but dictating how the teams adhere to the limit it grossly excessive rule making.

The desired outcome is to reduce speed in the pit lane - how the team achieve this, whether by a speed limiter, using engines revs, counting grid girls or using the Force should be left to the teams themselves to decide.
Im sorry that makes no sense to me.

Having a system in place makes for easy application, reduces error, allows for easy adjudication and easy enforcement

What you are suggesting is complicated and more difficult to enforce increasing opportunities for errors

Whincup was speeding, he deserved penalty
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Old 22 Apr 2018, 22:51 (Ref:3816952)   #55
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chavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Im sorry that makes no sense to me.

Having a system in place makes for easy application, reduces error, allows for easy adjudication and easy enforcement

What you are suggesting is complicated and more difficult to enforce increasing opportunities for errors

Whincup was speeding, he deserved penalty
I agree, but was surprised the read that the rules dictate that the teams must use the speed limiter and not another method of their choosing.
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 00:45 (Ref:3816959)   #56
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I agree, but was surprised the read that the rules dictate that the teams must use the speed limiter and not another method of their choosing.
The speed limiters were introduced about 15 years ago and have been in use ever since. The teams were heavily involved with the testing and methodology of the limiters before they were introduced and all like the fact that they can be checked for all cars and no-one can gain a benefit without it showing up.

Very effective system, works well, can't see it changing anytime soon.
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 00:56 (Ref:3816960)   #57
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ford71 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridford71 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ripper round, Sunday race was particularly enjoyable.

Couple of unusual errors from 888 while Erebus doing everything right.
Is making for an interesting championship battle early on.

Fabian's rear wing mistake was plain dumb - why are there holes that allow the wing to be setup illegally?

Congrats to Rick for 2 podiums

Larko needs to practice on his smartboard, but before the telecast starts, not during.
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 05:20 (Ref:3816969)   #58
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Whincup's penalty is yet another case of too many rules resulting in little or no benefit to the sport.
Couldn't agree more. He got zero benefit from it, it didn't effect anyone else, and it didn't effect the end result of the race ( he lost a place after that pitstop ). The penalty was massive compared to the crime. Yes he broke the rule, but let's apply some common sense when handing out penalties.
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 05:45 (Ref:3816970)   #59
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bludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridbludvl_x19 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Couldn't agree more. He got zero benefit from it, it didn't effect anyone else, and it didn't effect the end result of the race ( he lost a place after that pitstop ). The penalty was massive compared to the crime. Yes he broke the rule, but let's apply some common sense when handing out penalties.
I've got a question for you (and anyone who holds the same viewpoint.)

If the punishment doesn't fit the crime, what should the punishment be? Bear in mind that whatever you decide, it needs to be consistent.
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 05:47 (Ref:3816971)   #60
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Couldn't agree more. He got zero benefit from it, it didn't effect anyone else, and it didn't effect the end result of the race ( he lost a place after that pitstop ). The penalty was massive compared to the crime. Yes he broke the rule, but let's apply some common sense when handing out penalties.
Jamie was speeding in "pit lane" according to the footage. He was about 7km too fast which then gave him an advantage of Scott on leaving the pits. Its irrelevant that Scott eventually passed him

Same penalty Scott got last year in Newcastle when he was speeding in pit lane.

So at least consistent. However like in newcastle the penalty is harsh. Harsher penalty than a jump start, Harsher penalty than taking a car off the road at 200kmh
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 05:48 (Ref:3816972)   #61
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I've got a question for you (and anyone who holds the same viewpoint.)

If the punishment doesn't fit the crime, what should the punishment be? Bear in mind that whatever you decide, it needs to be consistent.
I'm happy for it to be equal with the jump start penalty. A 10 second hold at the next pit stop or time added after the race
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 06:04 (Ref:3816973)   #62
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I'm happy for it to be equal with the jump start penalty. A 10 second hold at the next pit stop or time added after the race
Problem with that is that there are real, unprotected people working in pit lane and the whole point of the low speed and pit lane limiter is to manage risk around those vulnerable people.

The penalties for exceeding speed or not using the limiter need to be harsh to overcome any competitive urges. A driver might choose to switch a limiter off, rip past another car just completing its stop in pit lane by accelerating beyond the 40kmh but accept the 10 sec penalty in the belief that the time can be made back on track with better track position. In the meantime, putting the safety of a bunch of crew members at greater risk. Nup, makes no sense to reduce the penalty at all.
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 07:27 (Ref:3816978)   #63
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Problem with that is that there are real, unprotected people working in pit lane and the whole point of the low speed and pit lane limiter is to manage risk around those vulnerable people.

The penalties for exceeding speed or not using the limiter need to be harsh to overcome any competitive urges. A driver might choose to switch a limiter off, rip past another car just completing its stop in pit lane by accelerating beyond the 40kmh but accept the 10 sec penalty in the belief that the time can be made back on track with better track position. In the meantime, putting the safety of a bunch of crew members at greater risk. Nup, makes no sense to reduce the penalty at all.
I understand that, Nothing has changed though, just the penalty isn't as harsh. The difference would see almost no, if any, difference to safety as it would not change the desire to not get a penalty. As per the jump start rule there is the ability to provide a harsher penalty if required

Last edited by peckstar; 23 Apr 2018 at 07:36.
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 08:01 (Ref:3816979)   #64
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I understand that, Nothing has changed though, just the penalty isn't as harsh. The difference would see almost no, if any, difference to safety as it would not change the desire to not get a penalty. As per the jump start rule there is the ability to provide a harsher penalty if required
Sorry, you are demonstrating a lack of understanding of the mindset of racing teams / drivers and you are also forgetting that there is team input into the judicial system when the rules / penalties are being set - they don't want to back off on current safety measures and penalties in the pit lane.
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 08:12 (Ref:3816980)   #65
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Sorry, you are demonstrating a lack of understanding of the mindset of racing teams / drivers and you are also forgetting that there is team input into the judicial system when the rules / penalties are being set - they don't want to back off on current safety measures and penalties in the pit lane.
I dont think i am

Why would any driver/team deliberately break the rules to gain one second when they know they will be caught and penalised 10 seconds

There is no backing down/reduction on the safety measures here, just a reduction in the consequence. Which is still significant enough to stop people deliberately break the rules and also provides consistent punishment with other penalties

And then there is the contradiction of your post, the teams would deliberately break the rules. The rules the same team want to enforce. It cant be both

Last edited by peckstar; 23 Apr 2018 at 08:18.
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 09:53 (Ref:3816988)   #66
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I dont think i am

Why would any driver/team deliberately break the rules to gain one second when they know they will be caught and penalised 10 seconds

There is no backing down/reduction on the safety measures here, just a reduction in the consequence. Which is still significant enough to stop people deliberately break the rules and also provides consistent punishment with other penalties

And then there is the contradiction of your post, the teams would deliberately break the rules. The rules the same team want to enforce. It cant be both
Well it happened on Saturday didn't it - even with the existing penalty in place. In the heat of the moment, people sometimes make rash decisions and a smaller risk (penalty) can sometimes encourage it to happen more often.

Either way, the penalty is what it is, the pit lane is a high risk area with vulnerable pedestrians exposed and risk has been mitigated by way of a suite of rule structures, including the current penalties. In the same way that penalties for testing outside the rules didn't change after Woomera, I can't see there being any drive from within the paddock for any change to the penalties applicable to pit lanes.
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 11:12 (Ref:3816993)   #67
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Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The penalty applied, is a one-size-fits-all.

So ANY intance where the pit lane speed limit was exceded, warrants a drive-through penalty, or a pre-detirmined amount of time added, at the conclusion of the race.

The punishment does fit the crime, but given where and how it occurred, it kind of doesn't. I don't think a rule change is required though.
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 13:32 (Ref:3817009)   #68
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My understanding is that Whincup turned OFF the pit lane limiter as he tried (and did) to get out of his pit in front of McLaughlin which is a no no...
I presume by turning the limiter off he would be able to have more power and be able to accelerate faster which would help him gain the advantage.
He was pinged turning the limiter off then back on.

A case of trying to gain an unfair advantage (cheating!)
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 14:37 (Ref:3817012)   #69
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My understanding is that Whincup turned OFF the pit lane limiter as he tried (and did) to get out of his pit in front of McLaughlin which is a no no...
I presume by turning the limiter off he would be able to have more power and be able to accelerate faster which would help him gain the advantage.
He was pinged turning the limiter off then back on.

A case of trying to gain an unfair advantage (cheating!)
Nup - all the footage released and I think the stewards finding said that he was past car 17 prior to turning the limiter off. He did open up a gap by getting more acceleration earlier though.
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Old 23 Apr 2018, 15:09 (Ref:3817017)   #70
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mayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmayhem should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
So if Whincup exceeds by 7km hr, which may give him a couple of car lengths at best, but then Scotty throws it down the road trying to make up that ill-gotten gain? What then? As someone else has said here, the rules ar ethe rules, there should be no flexibility in application to avoid inconsistencies.

And a reason for a quick blip in turning off the pitlane speed limiter to make up one second could be the difference in queuing up in the lane, ultimately costing you many many more seconds.
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Old 24 Apr 2018, 00:14 (Ref:3817089)   #71
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chavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
In regards to safety the most frightening aspect of the weekend was during the safety car period.

Drivers pushing hard under the safety car along the main straight with cars exiting pitlane and then having the aforementioned driver having to slow as to not run into the exiting cars.

The fact that drivers are allowed to drive at unabated speed under the safety car is almost criminal - especially when other simple (such as the F1 rules) methods are available to stamp out this reckless practice.
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Old 24 Apr 2018, 00:35 (Ref:3817091)   #72
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ford71 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridford71 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The Whincup penalty IS harsh.
But it needs to be when considering why the rule is in place. ie. safe pitlane for crew.

In this instance though it is probably worse for Jamie because he had no opportunity to race after the penalty and peg back some of that lost time / positions.
If he had been given the drive-thru directly after the infringement, he may have grabbed 6 or 7 positions back and the 75 points loss would have been halved.
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Old 24 Apr 2018, 00:53 (Ref:3817095)   #73
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The Whincup penalty IS harsh.
But it needs to be when considering why the rule is in place. ie. safe pitlane for crew.

In this instance though it is probably worse for Jamie because he had no opportunity to race after the penalty and peg back some of that lost time / positions.
If he had been given the drive-thru directly after the infringement, he may have grabbed 6 or 7 positions back and the 75 points loss would have been halved.
No harsher than Scott's penalty at newcastle.

Actually it might have been worse, because the field was more closely bunched at the time and he would have had to fight through the traffic, potentially losing more time.
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Old 24 Apr 2018, 01:18 (Ref:3817098)   #74
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No harsher than Scott's penalty at newcastle.
The #1 reason why I'm OK with how it went down on the weekend

Edit:
Just thinking after re-reading my previous post.
You would really need to dissect what was happening on track with all positions to see what sort of gain or missed opportunity Whincup faced by having the penalty applied post-race instead of an immediate drive-thru. After all he did get to race on after he infringed so was making up spots that would be later taken away.

Semantics, he did the wrong, accidentally, but it still occurred therefore drive-thru.
At least the vision and data made it obvious this time.

Last edited by ford71; 24 Apr 2018 at 01:23.
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Old 24 Apr 2018, 04:55 (Ref:3817107)   #75
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Thought it was an interesting race. McLaughlin a well-deserved win, Kelly a much needed podium. I thought it seemed obvious Whincup was running less DF leading to higher straight speed but less corner stability as compared to the 17.

Also thought DJR should have long pitted McLaughlin by 5 or 10 liters as the opening stint showed McLaughlin had a slight pace advantage and could have closed down Whincup prior to stop 2. Oh well, Scotty Mac covered it for them. Looking forward to race 2.
Exactly why I can't stand the convoluted fuel drop rule. Get rid of it and stop making things unnecessarily complicated, it provides no benefit whatsoever.
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