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Old 26 Feb 2023, 18:22 (Ref:4145005)   #4151
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Originally Posted by tux View Post
I dont get it, banning tyre warmers seems like a sensible decision to introduce more variables and reliance on driver skill. So why is it so controversial?

The final vote to ban them is after this year's British GP.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1...rix-/10435883/
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Old 2 Mar 2023, 12:37 (Ref:4145482)   #4152
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I dont get it, banning tyre warmers seems like a sensible decision to introduce more variables and reliance on driver skill. So why is it so controversial?
Supposedly the pressure and temperature variation is much greater than in other series (like Indycar or F2, which are both about 10 seconds per lap slower), due to the much greater downforce of F1 and that is what makes the technical challenge of non-preheated tyres in F1 more difficult.

The suggestion is that it will be difficult to impossible to make a tyre with an operating temperature range from ambient to 140+ °C, when the variation in tyre pressure is so much greater than other series - supposedly. Go figure!

For reference, these are the suitable temperature ranges for the tyres from 2019:



As you can see, even the softest C5 requires at least 85 °C, while the hard C1 tyre requires a minimum of 110 °C. To reduce that lower figure to ambient or close to will supposedly be difficult, and the drivers were supposedly unhappy when skating around on an outlap with the prototype version of the blanket-less tyres.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 2 Mar 2023 at 12:42.
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Old 2 Mar 2023, 16:18 (Ref:4145508)   #4153
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Supposedly the pressure and temperature variation is much greater than in other series (like Indycar or F2, which are both about 10 seconds per lap slower), due to the much greater downforce of F1 and that is what makes the technical challenge of non-preheated tyres in F1 more difficult.

The suggestion is that it will be difficult to impossible to make a tyre with an operating temperature range from ambient to 140+ °C, when the variation in tyre pressure is so much greater than other series - supposedly. Go figure!
I stopped following prototype racing in around 2017 when those cars probably had F1 (or near) level of downforce and speed. So things have changed as to the top level spec in that series (lower performance than before), but broadly speaking, I don't think they are radically different and they are dropping tire warmers this season. Other prototype series (such as IMSA with the same cars) have operated without warmers for years including in very cold temps at 24hr Daytona. The point is... running without warmers probably can be done in F1.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...re-warmer-ban/

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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
For reference, these are the suitable temperature ranges for the tyres from 2019:



As you can see, even the softest C5 requires at least 85 °C, while the hard C1 tyre requires a minimum of 110 °C. To reduce that lower figure to ambient or close to will supposedly be difficult
I have to wonder if those ranges are "optimal" ranges. Meaning... they work at lower temps, but just not very well. I think the tires should be "safe" (i.e. they work) at lower temps, but there should not be any expectation that they will provide equivalent cold and warm temp performance!

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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
and the drivers were supposedly unhappy when skating around on an outlap with the prototype version of the blanket-less tyres.
Frankly I think this is the big reason there is pushback. I particularly like you phrasing it as "unhappy" as that is how I would phase it as well.

The various series who are looking to drop (or have dropped) tire warmers will call out things like "environmental" reasons. Such as the waste of energy to warm tires. While that is true, I think the real reason those running the series want to drop them is because it adds in a new factor that can impact (i.e. create drama) within the race. But I think if they use that reason it sounds like an artificial thing. Like watering the track or something. But having tire warmers in the first place is just as artificial as not having them.

If you are in a situation in which you can do your refueling quickly (or like F1 no refueling), you are getting extremely quick tire changes, and your new tires are already (or nearly so) up to operating temperature, then if everyone executes to plan, you overall window (in lap, out lap, etc.) are probably HIGHLY predictable and something you can plan for and generally anticipate a specific outcome.

But if you now have to deal with an out lap (or laps) in which the tires are performing poorly until they get up to temperature, it is less predictable. Not to mention if your driver is trying to drive beyond the capabilities of the car, more risky for an off, etc. So this can potentially result in more "randomness" of the race order due to pit stops. Today in F1, for the most part, if everyone pits at different times, and gets out of sequence, if they have all gone through their first stop, they might pop out in exactly the same order on track because of the above mentioned consistency.

So the commonly mentioned negative by drivers is "it is a safety issue". And I guess at some level it is a safety issue. But... can't everything be labelled a safety issue? I am all for safety in racing, but where does it end? Maybe we should just cut the power in half to really slow them down to make it "safer", etc. I personally think the safety topic is mostly a red herring and an excuse from those who want to protect against the impact to the current consistent and low drama pit stops.

Lastly, in the new cost cap era, unpredictability is something nobody wants, because it also means "unpredictable cost". Using my example above of a driver who comes out on cold tires, sees some red mist, over drives the tires, has an off (is OK), but has significantly damaged the car. With speculation that part of why Haas dropped Mick last year was his repair bill, why would teams want to introduce this risk to their budget? So I get that concern, but there is always risk in racing. I personally would like to see the tire warmers go away. I would like to see drivers having to adjust their out lap pace to warm the tires and I would like to see the potential that some might do that better than others.

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Old 2 Mar 2023, 17:00 (Ref:4145514)   #4154
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks
and the drivers were supposedly unhappy when skating around on an outlap with the prototype version of the blanket-less tyres.


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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Frankly I think this is the big reason there is pushback. I particularly like you phrasing it as "unhappy" as that is how I would phase it as well.
Richard

Absolutely this is the big reason there is pushback. Your driver comes in for his stop and everything is looking good to make the undercut on the other team. The last thing you want is for your driver to go back out tippy toe on the out lap and miss the undercut, or worse the driver bins the car in the gravel trap, game over, because the tyres weren't up to temp.
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Old 2 Mar 2023, 17:08 (Ref:4145515)   #4155
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I see they have finally altered the sporting regs, to have the graded points at the end of the 2 hour race/3 hour event window, dependent of laps completed at that point.

This may have been posted and commented upon already
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Old 2 Mar 2023, 21:42 (Ref:4145535)   #4156
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The whole tyre thing is artificial anyway and only introduced to make the racing more intereating in an era when overtaking was difficult because of the aero. Why not have 3 compounds available where the hardest is able to complete the whole race and junk the artificiality of mandatory pit stops. Let teams then choose the strategy on one, two or no stops.
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Old 3 Mar 2023, 15:47 (Ref:4145625)   #4157
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So Lewis has successfully argued to keep his nose studs.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...stud/10438847/

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We have determined to take no further action as there are concerns about disfigurement with frequent attempts at removal of the device.
So basically if you are able to make a relatively "permanent" modification you can then put them in a position in which it can't be easily removed, so they then grant an exception. It sounds like "ask for forgiveness".

I tend to think we will not hear much about this until someone really pushes the envelope and does something that is really out there and may be a real issue.

Me personally, I am fine with the nose studs.

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Old 3 Mar 2023, 21:52 (Ref:4145658)   #4158
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Pretty weak effort from the FIA I reckon. If jewellery is a big enough issue to reinforce the requirements (& I understand how big an issue it really can be when emergency medical procedures may be needed) then the requirements should be reinforced for everyone and no exceptions.

If there is a concern about disfigurement with frequent removing and replacing, then a strong governing body would simply say "remove and keep it removed if you're worried about that".

This has all been a storm in a teacup since it was announced and the FIA has been weak and vague and inconsistent in its approach - best to either allow or not allow, make it black and white, crystal clear and then all know exactly where they stand. Wonder how many hours of investigations and steward's hearings there have been into LH's nose stud?
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Old 4 Mar 2023, 11:27 (Ref:4145704)   #4159
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tux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
New qualifying format seems like an awful idea. People are just going to not run in practice to save tyres. On top of this I fear the grid will become too predictable

Why won’t they just leave things alone? They’ve already got what they wanted. Big profit, Netflix & social media, young people.
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Old 15 Jul 2023, 22:40 (Ref:4168557)   #4160
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Thought I'd resurrect this thread to add this article from Autosport - some comments made by Stefano Domenicali about F1 going back to ICE on sustainable fuels and doing away with hybrids in the future.

Seems like AT LAST someone in a position of power "gets it". The current cars are too big, too heavy, too bloated due in large part to the hybrid powertrains which also result in the relative lack of sound.

Honestly don't know if he's whistling in the dark, or if he has any serious chance of getting such a change up (would still be a few years away unfortunately) but I'd vote for it in a heartbeat!

Fair play to him.
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Old 16 Jul 2023, 07:48 (Ref:4168581)   #4161
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Yes, it's so refreshing to see they are hoping to go back to simpler engines, instead this complicated piece of equipment they current have. And having engines sound better too. Maybe Vettel can help out with the fuels too?
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Old 16 Jul 2023, 10:27 (Ref:4168598)   #4162
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Seems like AT LAST someone in a position of power "gets it". The current cars are too big, too heavy, too bloated due in large part to the hybrid powertrains which also result in the relative lack of sound.

I agree. I visited the National Motor Museum last month and spent some time looking at the 3 Formula 1 cars on display. Two were from the late 80s/early 90s era and were dwarfed by the 2017 Williams (FW44?).
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Old 17 Jul 2023, 07:14 (Ref:4168717)   #4163
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Thought I'd resurrect this thread to add this article from Autosport - some comments made by Stefano Domenicali about F1 going back to ICE on sustainable fuels and doing away with hybrids in the future.

Seems like AT LAST someone in a position of power "gets it". The current cars are too big, too heavy, too bloated due in large part to the hybrid powertrains which also result in the relative lack of sound.

Honestly don't know if he's whistling in the dark, or if he has any serious chance of getting such a change up (would still be a few years away unfortunately) but I'd vote for it in a heartbeat!

Fair play to him.

I was about to post the same in this thread. The momentum against the 2026 regulation direction seems to be building. Sure the ones representing the manufacturers (Mercedes and Renault) are doing their best to protect it, but the resistance is coming from increasingly more and more important angles.


The FIA boss:
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/fo...cars/10480626/

F1 boss:
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1...nes-/10495952/

Horner:
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/ur...rner/10489537/

Verstappen:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/v...ream/10492339/

Hamilton as well in the past:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/h...konen/6530045/

Gary Andersson:
https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-...be-bad-for-f1/


Vettel:
https://the-race.com/formula-1/vette...in-the-future/


Quote:
“The question is always whatever technology you run in a car – and I can mostly speak for F1 – is how much of a technology transfer actually happens to the road?,” Vettel said in a response to a question from The Race on the future of F1’s engines.
“If there is none then you have to ask the question ‘what is the point in what we’re doing and can we do better?’ If there is a lot of it [road car transferability] then obviously there is a purpose."
I strongly agree with the point Vettel is making. There is very little technology transfer to the road, it's all fake, marketing and greenwashing and at the expense of racing.


It seems the momentum is tilting and to me it feels like the manufacturers don't have enough collective influence to prevent the status quo to change.

In the wheel size thread I said this:
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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
There is a solution; a V6 turbo with a simple KERS system would require only a small light energy storage solution and could be run on synthetic fuel.

That way they could:
- Stick with the current V6 turbo architecture.
- Call it hybrid
- Use sustainable fuel
- Have smaller environmental footprint overall due to lower production and logistic costs.
- Have a much smaller powerunit, which in turn allows smaller cars that again way less.
- Have a much much lighter end solution.

A sub 700kg car would be easily possible with all current safety improvements and the current cheaper common parts.

I think the reason they don't go for this solution is because:

- They want to be on a trajectory towards full electric in order to appear advanced and environmental friendly (while in fact the V6 turbo KERS overall would be a better solution also on that front.
- They want to be prepared if there is a big jump in battery tech and full electric racing would become F1 worthy.
- If they would go for a light solution the first full electric rules set some time after that would present a mayor weight increase and therefore draw a lot of criticism.

I think battery tech that would allow F1 levels of performance (lightweight handling wise) is still far away because energy density is just not improving anywhere fast enough. Eventually they might approach the lap times, but it would not be in the lightweight spirit and tradition of F1. To me it's a shame to compromising the performance of F1 cars that much that early because of unnecessary weight. There is enough time to transition to higher electric component in the drivetrain later because, as said, the battery tech to allow full electric F1 performance cars is still very far out.
I could imagine this could be a direction they are considering; Smaller and lighter power unit, smaller and lighter cars, smaller and lighter wheels.

One wonders though, if what they are thinking is after 2026 we quickly need something lighter (which would seem a terrible waist of resources) or perhaps postpone the rule changes one year and then do it right in one go?

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Old 17 Jul 2023, 08:40 (Ref:4168723)   #4164
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If they had lighter cars they could reduce the aero a bit too. I don't really think the cars need 1800+kg of downforce.

My laundry list of changes is something like;

- Reduce to 700kg or lighter if possible
- Lower front wing by 100mm
- Reduce surface area of front and rear wings by 50%
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Old 17 Jul 2023, 14:48 (Ref:4168775)   #4165
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I was about to post the same in this thread. The momentum against the 2026 regulation direction seems to be building.
Beware of combining much of this talk with respect to the 2026 regulations. See below as to what I view the actual purpose of the links you provide are...

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This is goals for the 2026 car regulations, not the power unit regulations. And it is not a "push back", but stated design goals.

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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
This is about the engine spec AFTER the end of the 2026 spec. So probably 2030 or later. Not about 2026.

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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
This is about the how the balance of output power for the 2026 spec is implemented. For example... they don't want to run out of electrical deployment on long straights. This may or may not result in tweaks to the 2026 spec, but not any type of rethink.

In short, Horner/RBPT are nervous because to the 2026 power unit spec is going to be highly dependent upon efficient and smart usage of the battery power. And this is an area in which they might be the weakest. So they are asking for a helping hand. Note, Mercedes has rightly called this out.

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Verstappen just saying what fans say is that they like the older ICE engines of old. No so much a push back as wishful thinking. It's like asking someone what they want and they answer "ice cream" or a "pony". I mean, I can't disagree with him, but it's not deep thinking here.

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Not directly about the 2026 power units. You can say maybe indirectly as the hybrid solutions contribute to the weight increase. This probably speaks more toward the 2026 car design goals.

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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
His article is all over the place. I might summarize it as "Former F1 designer ranting against restrictive regulations". I get it. It is contrary to what he did in the past and probably is a view most designers would have. But it is fantasy. For example if history is a guide and they went back to a full combustion power unit, there is nearly zero chance it would be some type of "open design" solution like he proposes. We can love Gary, and he sometimes gets it right, but not this time. He is living in the past.

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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
Focus on sustainability and not an argument directly against the 2026 power unit. But he does say something very interesting that I will quote below (and you call it out in your quote).

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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
One wonders though, if what they are thinking is after 2026 we quickly need something lighter (which would seem a terrible waist of resources) or perhaps postpone the rule changes one year and then do it right in one go?
So the end of your post is at odds with the start of your post. You call out a push back against the 2026 regulations (which I generally say is not true), but end with questions as to what happens after the 2026 regulations are done. And I think that is exactly where this is going. What will it look like circa 2030 or so???

From the Domenicali interview in the Autosport article posted earlier...
Quote:
But I believe if we do a good job with sustainable fuels, we will be able to have simplified engines in a few years with a lower impact on weight. It's something we'll soon start thinking about.
It's clear from the entire article he is talking about post 2026 regulations.

From the Vettel interview from above...
Quote:
Vettel believes “hybrid does have a place” in the future of F1 but says bigger questions need to be asked around whether F1 still exists to provide transferable technology for the future of road cars or whether it needs to be reclassified as simply part of arts and culture.
The bold above is mine not from the article. I find that last bit fascinating. My take on what is meant is that circa 2030, the world will have clearly moved beyond F1 as we know it. We view F1 as some type of "technical pinnacle", but it has been far from it for decades. The current generation of highly efficient combustion engines (and the competition to develop them) was maybe the last hurrah of "pure technology development" from F1 that might have implications outside of F1. The cars themselves are firmly rooted in very old technology. I have made the comparison before that F1 cars are high end, extremely finely crafted mechanical watches in a world of quartz watches. And the quartz watches are lower price and are much more accurate at telling time.

I think the point that Vettel is making is that in 2030, F1 will be the equivalent of horse and buggy racing. Tight technical regulations, but a throwback that fans can enjoy. That it will be OK to use relatively basic cars that use only combustion engines. Of course for sustainability reasons, the fuel will be from sustainable sources, but otherwise they might be much smaller, lighter and raw solutions much like F1 of yesterday. "Arts and Culture" as he says.

Richard

Last edited by Richard C; 17 Jul 2023 at 14:56.
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Old 17 Jul 2023, 15:52 (Ref:4168787)   #4166
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if the fuel is 100% sustainable using bio mass that doesn't impact on human food production then would it still need an art/cultural exemption?

much as it was with tobacco tho, once a handful of major markets decided to ban smoking/advertising they were also able to preclude anything related to it from being broadcast in those markets with the exception being for arts/culture endeavors.

granted you see it a lot less in movies and tv shows these days, but people in film still smoke and it doesnt prevent those films from enjoying wide releases...will be interesting to see if motor racing can claim a similar exemption if a full on ICE ban came into effect.

although if they could make such arguments you would think they would have already done so when tobacco advertising was banned?
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Old 17 Jul 2023, 16:17 (Ref:4168792)   #4167
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if the fuel is 100% sustainable using bio mass that doesn't impact on human food production then would it still need an art/cultural exemption?
I may be misunderstanding Vettel's comments. But I take it as less about there being an exemption to exist (from a legal perspective), but rather the existence is no longer about "road car relevance", "commercialization of technology" or even "technical relevance" " and rather F1 exists from an "Art and Cultural" perspective alone. The beauty and of the cars themselves, the noise and smell from combustion engines, etc. The continuation and preservation of historic motorsports culture.

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Old 17 Jul 2023, 16:28 (Ref:4168795)   #4168
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To follow up (should have included in the post above). This is nothing new, I and others have said this, but that would also mean a shrinking of F1 from an overall budget perspective. The sport may no longer have much attraction to manufactures who dip in and out depending up their advertising needs. For example, why would a manufacture who might be making electric flying cars (as extreme example) in the future want to sponsor ancient internal combustion racing?

F1 might become more like... I don't know... off shore powerboat racing. In which the money comes either from someone who just loves the sport aspect or maybe a large sponsor who wants to tie their brand to not the technical aspect of the sport, but rather the sport itself. You might say that Red Bull (or current luxury brands) are proto example of future F1 sponsorship. Teams would be more garagista than something like a Mercedes or maybe even Ferrari. But sponsored by brands that just enjoy the association.

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Old 17 Jul 2023, 17:23 (Ref:4168806)   #4169
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On the fuel front, synthetic fuels are under development which will run in existing engines. This is very important not just for F1 but for the thousands of competition cars all around the world. This is not bio-mass or ethanol based, it uses electricity (renewable generated, of course) to combine CO2 from the atmosphere plus water into a hydrocarbon fuel. Burn it in an engine and it reverts to CO2 and H2O and releases the energy used to make it. There's an exF1 engineer (whose name escapes me at the moment) heading one of the leading companies in the field.
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Old 17 Jul 2023, 18:02 (Ref:4168811)   #4170
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I may be misunderstanding Vettel's comments.
i would prefer to think that neither of us are misunderstanding his comments

from the article Taxi645 posted plus many of Vettee's other statements, quotes, and actions, he seems to be approaching these issue from a number of different angles so only natural that there would be multiple take always from what he is saying.

he is a smart dude making some very well thought out and nuanced points, would definitely like to see him given a larger voice at the table.
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Old 17 Jul 2023, 18:04 (Ref:4168812)   #4171
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he is a smart dude making some very well thought out and nuanced points, would definitely like to see him given a larger voice at the table.
Yes. Of all of the various talking heads giving their thoughts on these topics, I find his comments the most interesting and thought out.



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Old 18 Jul 2023, 11:58 (Ref:4168882)   #4172
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To follow up (should have included in the post above). This is nothing new, I and others have said this, but that would also mean a shrinking of F1 from an overall budget perspective. The sport may no longer have much attraction to manufactures who dip in and out depending up their advertising needs. For example, why would a manufacture who might be making electric flying cars (as extreme example) in the future want to sponsor ancient internal combustion racing?

F1 might become more like... I don't know... off shore powerboat racing. In which the money comes either from someone who just loves the sport aspect or maybe a large sponsor who wants to tie their brand to not the technical aspect of the sport, but rather the sport itself. You might say that Red Bull (or current luxury brands) are proto example of future F1 sponsorship. Teams would be more garagista than something like a Mercedes or maybe even Ferrari. But sponsored by brands that just enjoy the association.

Richard
But in order for that to happen a MUCH simpler engine to run and maintain would be required. Ferrari doesn't think they can sell their WEC car to privateers and that's nowhere near the F1 spec of bits.
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Old 18 Jul 2023, 13:07 (Ref:4168893)   #4173
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But in order for that to happen a MUCH simpler engine to run and maintain would be required. Ferrari doesn't think they can sell their WEC car to privateers and that's nowhere near the F1 spec of bits.
Yes. Sorry I meant my post you quoted as a follow up to my prior post. You need to read them in series.

The thought was looking to a hypothetical future (expanding upon my interpretation of Vettel's F1 as "Arts and Culture" vs. "Road Relevance" of today) in which circa 2030 F1 moves away from trying to be road and/or technology relevant and a simple combustion engine (no hybrid) using sustainable fuels. This would would result in effectively zero manufacture involvement, much less money, a shrinking of F1 and back to a more garagista (and unsaid in my prior posts) gentleman racer types (cough, cough, more dentists, or other independently wealthy drivers who can fund their own teams).

Do I think it will happen? I think it depends upon how far the world moves forward with respect to automobile power plants around 2030. Also it means someone (Liberty?) would loose money on F1. Will F1 be a slow decline as it tries to maintain the current model and they go down swinging or will they stay ahead of the curve and adapt/change?

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Old 19 Jul 2023, 03:56 (Ref:4168977)   #4174
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Yes. Sorry I meant my post you quoted as a follow up to my prior post. You need to read them in series.

The thought was looking to a hypothetical future (expanding upon my interpretation of Vettel's F1 as "Arts and Culture" vs. "Road Relevance" of today) in which circa 2030 F1 moves away from trying to be road and/or technology relevant and a simple combustion engine (no hybrid) using sustainable fuels. This would would result in effectively zero manufacture involvement, much less money, a shrinking of F1 and back to a more garagista (and unsaid in my prior posts) gentleman racer types (cough, cough, more dentists, or other independently wealthy drivers who can fund their own teams).

Do I think it will happen? I think it depends upon how far the world moves forward with respect to automobile power plants around 2030. Also it means someone (Liberty?) would loose money on F1. Will F1 be a slow decline as it tries to maintain the current model and they go down swinging or will they stay ahead of the curve and adapt/change?

Richard
Interesting question.
If one looks at the UN sustainable goals and the discussion around what a sustainable world looks like, I nthink all international sport will contract enormously.

This would assume the world allows the UN/WEF congregation the place to fulfill their most extreme goals but by 2030 things on the planet could be very, very, different.
If that happens then international motorsport may very well depend on exactly the sort of support and financial economics you are suggesting,
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Old 19 Jul 2023, 08:51 (Ref:4168995)   #4175
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I guess when you have the Ferrari WEC car kicking out near 700bhp, I imagine with an engine that is hugely cheaper to produce, you do wonder if the F1 path is the correct one.
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