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Old 21 May 2006, 14:35 (Ref:1615571)   #1
v8yob
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List 1a tyres

First post on here so Hello everybody.

I was hoping you chaps could give me a bit of advice on List1A tyres which I have to use for the class of racing I'm about ot embark upon. Car is a sevenesqe dax rush weighs about 680ks with about 280rwhp.

Someone mentioned T1-Rs shaved to 4mm are pretty good and close to 888 type performance. Any advice appreciated.

Cheers,
Bob
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Old 21 May 2006, 15:01 (Ref:1615586)   #2
greenamex2
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Scrubbed T1-Rs are good but NOT close to 888 performance. Your best bet is to see what tyres the top ten cars in your intended class are running on.

I don't think you would go far wrong with scrubbed T1-R's. On a light kit car I would go as low as 3mm, I use 4mm on my 840Kg saloon and they can last a season!
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Old 21 May 2006, 17:12 (Ref:1615657)   #3
graeme
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Depends on what size you're running - I believe that Scudo (?) Stunners are currently the tyre to have in 13" - before that it was Bridgestone RE270s, if you can still find them

What ever you chose, you're going to have fun getting 280 ponies down through 1A tyres Why don't they just call it the pants tyre list (1A) and the good tyre list (1B)
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Old 24 May 2006, 20:29 (Ref:1618159)   #4
v8yob
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tks, I'll look into the stunners. Pretty hacked off I have to use list 1a tbqh.
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Old 26 May 2006, 22:59 (Ref:1619836)   #5
Austinspace75
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Don't be. Many championships mandate tyres such as the Dunlop Formula R which, although an excellent and pretty durable tyre, cost about 100 each. It is the single reason I am not doing the series my car is intended for. Daft.

I'm sure any tyre that would give the kind of performance needed to make the very best of your 280 BHP would be highly expensive and unlikely to last very long. This would result in a severe disparity between entrants who can afford fresh rubber every race (probably only 2 or 3) and everyone else who is immediately at an unnecessary disadvantage that shouldn't be found in club level racing.

While you're list 1A tyres are not ideal, they will be reasonably cheap and therefore unlikely to cause a performance advantage to be found simply by having a bigger wallet. The other added bonus is that the cars are less likely to handle like they are on rails and therefore the skill of the driver is amplified, the braking distances are longer and the racing is much better.

Regardless of your overall grip level, what you are looking for is a nicely balanced car, making it predictable and good fun to chuck around.

Hope you find the right tyre!
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Old 26 May 2006, 23:46 (Ref:1619855)   #6
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Austinspace

My first point is that I do not have a lot of cash for my motorsport.

My second is that - with the greatest of respect - I find it absolutely impossible to agree with what you have said.

I have thought this through over a long period and have discussed the subject with many co competitors and the simple fact is that very few people out there really appreciate what list 1A is all about.

If you are really concerned about saving money and preventing people with more money buying better equipment than you, why don't you lobby for kwik fit exhausts, brake pads and shock absorbers. If you think it through the argument for these items is precisely the same as for the kwik fit tyres you favour.

And 1A can end up costing you money - as it did with me. The tyres in 1A are included in that list by the tyre manufacturers. It is not the MSA who distinguishes between the tyres that are in 1A or 1B. The MSA don't have any input. So when a tyre company decided that a tyre that had been in 1A for years had to come out I had to buy new tyres. Some championships (but not all) now say that a tyre that has been on list 1A in the last few years is ok but I just don't understand why if I don't run 1B tyes I have to run something that's in 1A.

Another example - I thought about competing in a car that has metric wheels - only one tyre fits these wheels but I still thought the car would be fun to compete in even if not massively competitive. No go - the relevant Michelins aren't in list 1A. What has that achieved for anybody??

The cheapest way to make a car faster and safer is to buy the best tyres you can afford. If these are R compound tyres intended for motorsport use, what on earth do you achieve by banning them?

I seriously question whether you really save much money.

And why pick on tyres?? The tyres you use directly affect safety as well as performance. Why not pick on expensive shock absorbers or why not just say that everyone has to compete in the same car as you with a budget that's no bigger than yours????

I think the answer is that tyres are easy to police and list 1A appeals to people who like to check out what equipment other people are using so they can have a really good moan about it.

Sorry - rant over

See you at kwik fit, then......

Last edited by jonners; 26 May 2006 at 23:51.
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Old 27 May 2006, 00:16 (Ref:1619865)   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonners
And 1A can end up costing you money - as it did with me...
It certainly can, depending on the 'flavour of the month' tyre at the time. A few years back in the List 1A sprint/hilllclimb world, it quickly became that the only tyre to have was the Bridgestone Potenza Pole Position S-02 (a snappy moniker if ever there wasn't one although I can't be sure I got all the words in the right order). These were more expensive than most grippier List 1B tyres to start with, and then on top of that (a) you had to pay for them to be buffed to get the best out of them, and (b) they were only available in 15" and upwards so if your nice lightweight Locaterfield was running on nice lightweight 13" rims then you had to find a pile of cash for some lightweight (yet still cumbersome) 15" rims to put your expensive list 1A tyres on in order to be competitive.

Nowadays the wheel has turned (groan) and the List 1A tyre of choice is the super-cheap Stunner (though still in 15" which is anathema to a light agile car) whilst in List 1B world you need the pricey and short-lived Avon ACB10 in A24 compound.

Plus ca change...

Mike
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Old 27 May 2006, 01:12 (Ref:1619887)   #8
Austinspace75
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Jonners,

Wow! I can't remember seeing someone miss a point so angrily! You obviously harbour deep seated opinions (a good thing) about the subject of tyres. But please don't take it out on me!

I apologise if I didn't make my point clearer.

The view expressed in my post is purely aimed at those series that mandate a very expensive tyre, thereby giving no choice but to pay out big money for items that that are likely to be in the bin in a short space of time.

With regards to your bizarre parallel with Kwik fit exhausts and so on, it would be fair to say that with brake pads aside, none of the items you are talking about suffer from the same vital attribute that makes tyres expensive, in that racing miles don't tend to wear them out quickly. They are bought once every few years. Tyres on the otherhand are a different matter entirely.

I'm afraid that I don't see how many of your points relate to mine. I am simply expressing the view that if a series wishes to have a control tyre, then make it a cost effective one, not one that instantly renders potential competitors unable to justify the cost and therefore unlikely to compete. You cannot argue that potential competitors choices are unaffected by cost! Therefore, it needs to be considered.

I make no points about banning the use of expensive tyres in series that have free regulations. The whole point of those series is to offer a place to race to whoever wants to enter. Therefore, those entering understand that it is unlikely they will be competing with those with a bigger budget.
My opinions are aimed to question championships that wish to have a single tyre policy in the interests of perfomance equality. If you're going to do that, then go for a cheaper rather than more expensive tyre. You're entry numbers will certainly be higher and the racing probably better.

I also express no opinions about championships that allow 1A but not 1B. That is a different argument from this one. I happen to agree with the points that you make about that stuff, but don't understand how it relates to the view I expressed. You seem to have drawn the conclusion that I am suggesting that all racing tyres should be banned and everybody should run on list 1A?
Again, I was merely responding to the thread author's complaint that the mandated tyre choice was not of the performance level he may like to run. My point is that if they're going to mandate a certain type, then its better that its the cheaper end of the market. It is very likely that those who determined the tyre regulations for the series he is looking to compete in are providing what their existing competitors want.

If you wish to spend spend spend, then there's no lack of championships that provide the need and clearly this championship is trying not to be one of them.

For the record and in response to your explanation about the problems with List 1A and 1B tyres, if the organisers are pitching regulations in a way that results in a limited choice of tyre and maybe no good solution, then of course its wrong! If you've had this experience, then I'm sorry to hear that, but its a different subject.

Incidentally, if I CHOOSE to run in a series that has people using better tyres and it is within the regulations then I'm unlikely to 'moan' about it aren't I? Are you confusing me with somebody that has irritated you by doing that?

Best Regards.
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Old 27 May 2006, 09:17 (Ref:1619995)   #9
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I run on list 1a tyre (Toyo Proxes T1-R's). This is a control tyre for the series.

I get a set of tyres for 140 and then spend 50 having them buffed.

They last at least half a season.

Other people that used to run in our series have gone on to others that allow list 1b or slick tyres have ended up spending 1-2K a year on tyres and not even being competitive any more. They have also ended up with a far less reliable car.

Yep, list 1b tyres are amazing (I run Kuhmo's on the kit car) but list 1a allow me to keep racing competitively whilst having a baby/life/house.

When I win the lottery, yep I'll be straight on slicks, along with the 2-3K to uprate the car to suit and the extra 3-5K a year to run the car competitively.
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Old 27 May 2006, 09:22 (Ref:1619997)   #10
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How interesting about the Stunners, I've fitted them on my road car and have to say they seemed good, didn't realise they were a demon tyre for speed events. Tnx for info

FWIW I've first hand knowledge of 1a control tyres. I well remember racing on slicks when you could buy your grid position with new tyres. Saw it happen many times, couldn't afford to do it myself, so always at the back. Now I'm racing on 1a control tyre, tyre performance is constant throughout the life of the tyre which is well in excess of a season, and my races consist of 30 minute runs around proper circuits. It's the same for everyone, no-one buys an advantage, great for us on a budget.

>>>>>So when a tyre company decided that a tyre that had been in 1A for years had to come out I had to buy new tyres

Like we have to buy new helmets, new belts. Damned petrol keeps getting used too. How often do you have to change 1b tyres? I knocked out 032Rs for a pastime on my Turbo. It happens. We get over it.

Last edited by midgetman; 27 May 2006 at 09:24.
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Old 28 May 2006, 12:02 (Ref:1620818)   #11
jonners
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Er, my aplogies...

...all my toys are back in the pram now

My post does sound like a direct assault on the previous poster - hope no offence was caused

I just get enormously frustrated on the subject of tyres in amateur motorsport

The one thing I've learnt is that tyre regs never suit everybody - a fact of life. But there is this view that the way to appease everybody and make things fairer is to specify list 1a

it doesn't work. my car is very hairy on list 1a and also less competitive than newer cars on 1a. 1b actually evens up the playing field

so there you go, an example of tyre regs not suiting me whereas they wouldn't bother someone in a different car. someone might say you just have to compensate by developing a different area of the car - er, but there goes the money I've supposedly saved on 1a tyres. And someone with more money than me will have exploited that area of development already so the notion that the playing field has been levelled by 1a is nonsense.

Tyres are consumables - yes, better ones wear out more quickly. so do better engines. why not specify halfords own brand oil and other consumables too??

Helmets?? analogy doesn't work - we don't have to buy new helmets just because the manufacturer withdraws perfectly acceptable items from a list in the blue book that was created to appease the sponsors of a production saloon car series in the 80's (a tyre manufacturer!!)

as for kwik fit shock absorbers - rebuildable items designed for motorsport might need servicing more frequently so let's please Karl Marx and ban them and send everyone to the tyre centre paradise

as for quick fit exhausts - the point is the same - why not prevent people from spending too much money on exhausts???

just because 'motorsport' tyres wear out more quickly downgrading the spec of the ones you can use is daft. Sorry but it really is. th point about money is nonsense

all the ib tyres i've ever bought have needed replacing before they have worn out - and my car is double driven at events and driven there and back on the road. perhaps you guys compete more often than me - clearly that's not fair...you get more practice than me, more development and more fun. We've got to put a stop to that.

I'm not ashamed to admit that it took me years of competing to realise how important tyres are and the huge effect they have on performance - i don't have limitless funds (i do have a wife, life and 2 children) but can't see the point of competing on tyres that aren't th best available for the purpose - for every reason to do with car performance don't mess around with tyres...

imagine telling the members of a golf club that inferior balls only are allowed because some members don't like losing expnsive ones

namby pamby nanny muesli monster loony let's make life fair sticky tyres are emotionally unappealing confound this pinko list 1a commie nonsense!!!!

I'll get my coat...
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Old 29 May 2006, 14:31 (Ref:1622000)   #12
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There seems to be a mind set in the south west of the UK regarding soft so-called road tyres in speed events. The insistance on allowing sticky road tyres there when the rest of the country mandates List1a has long been a nightmare to those who live remotely near the borders of this great divide. List 1b, incidently, has only ever been used in the south east for speed events in the past (and now for road kit cars) - other past regs elsewhere were "any road tyre" etc.
Regardless of the arguments for either, those who have created this ridiculous situation over far too many years should have long ago been taken out and shot. Having had to run both, sometimes at the same venue on different dates, 3 sets of soft rears a season against one set of List1a rears over 3 seasons is a convincing argument to me. I have usually also found the strongest advocates for sticky tyres are those with the strongest engines. Lower grip equals a more level playing field.
Obviously the MSA must depend on the manufacturers to assess which tyre goes on which list. What the MSC/A can then do is ensure that once a tyre is correctly on the list, it does NOT get removed - ever, if still used. Some of us remember when the Yokohama rep failed to turn up to a meeting and the others placed a star against all Yokos (indicating removal next year). The scandal of that was that no one at Colnbrook thought it strange or checked it out - competitors had to alert them.
Democratically elected MSC and MSC committees would be a first step to eliminating some of these nonsenses.

Last edited by Anuauto; 29 May 2006 at 14:35.
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Old 29 May 2006, 16:44 (Ref:1622134)   #13
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I have run my Camaros on list 1a Falkens and laterly one car on Dunlop Formula R's which are OK for the historic championship and a reasonable wear rate but limited in available sizes and the the other car on Kumho Medium compound. The wear rate on those is on the high side I would say I have done the equivalant of three races on them and I would say they have another two or three races maybe more if I swap them around. I personally prefer to run on the 1b's as I find them a lot more predicadable and less likely to launch me into the barriers at a moments notice than 1a's and just one of those excursions can cost an awful lot of tyres. I also found in the championship I was running on 1a's the guys were buying bigger and bigger rim/tyre combos to compensate for the lack of grip.

I think for the next set due to the weight of my car I will opt for the Kumho hard compounds as suggested by Graham Barr, these are the ones I believe the BMW championship specify and I think would give a reasonable wear rate and would probably last the race before going off as these did a little after 14 hard laps at Brands yesterday. The other advantage is they come in a great range of sizes including a low profile 16" tyre that suits my car fine.

PS: Another possible saving to consider is these 1b covers work well in the wet a hell of a lot better than 1a's which I found were virtually uncontrollable on my yanks when it started raining. In fact invairable I may just as well have pulled off. Both these Kumhos and the Dunlop R's I have now tried in the wet and they were not nearly so skitish so there may well be saving there for the clubman racer.

Last edited by Al Weyman; 29 May 2006 at 16:49.
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Old 29 May 2006, 17:10 (Ref:1622159)   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonners
imagine telling the members of a golf club that inferior balls only are allowed because some members don't like losing expnsive ones
Actually there are quite a few restrictions in proper golf tournements on certain types of equipment in order to prevent people from buying an advantage over other poorer competitors. This includes both certain makes/type of clubs and balls, the number of them etc. And this is despite the handicap system that is supposed to equalise all that sort of stuff anyway.

Bloody stupid game anyway. Spike Milligan had it right with "a good walk spoiled".
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Old 29 May 2006, 18:06 (Ref:1622206)   #15
MikeBz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis Bassom
Bloody stupid game anyway. Spike Milligan had it right with "a good walk spoiled".
Wasn't it Mark Twain originally?

Getting back on topic a bit , as I previously stated, there have been occasions where for speed events at least the cost of list 1A regs have far outstripped those of list 1B. For circuit racing I can see the story might be different. The SW (speed event world) doesn't allow crossplies, which means that the best list 1B tyres are a lot cheaper than what have traditionally been the best list 1A tyres and don't need buffing either. And on a light car will easily last a season. The SE events now allow list 1B too.

Mike
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