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Old 2 Jun 2006, 13:59 (Ref:1625437)   #31
jonners
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The scenario is pretty much the same as you remember it save that the standard classes have just about disappeared just leaving the modified (roadgoing) and very modified (slicks) classes.

The ASWMC is unique (I think) in allowing list 1b in the modified/roadgoing class. All other regions insist on 1a and have a class split at 2 litres rather than the ASWMC's 1800cc (don't get me started on that one...).

So - I turn up on the road in our Lotus Cortina to compete in a ROADGOING class on my road legal 1b tyres and have to deal with Elises and Exiges in my class (don't get me started on mixing saloons and sportscars....) - most fellow competitors having arrived on trailers.

1b tyres actually even things up dramatically. If I had to run 1a it wouldn't be worth coming out to play but the modern cars would be fine. In fact, our car isn't much fun on 1a tyres.

So perhaps we should try a historic class.

Well, we've been running at Prescott for years now in a class where any road legal tyre is permitted as are slicks that are cut in a particular way.

Despite the fact that these tyre rules have been set in stone for years and years, and despite the fact that just about any other modification goes, and despite the fact that the class record has been held for years by a chap who runs on very very sticky cut Hoosier crossply slicks, there are still mutterings about how we should all be on list 1a.

For the love of everything that is holy wot is wrong with these people??

I even got thrown out of my class once because the scrutineer said that my 1b tyres weren't road legal. Had to kick up a fuss to get reinstated - not the best use of everyone's leisure time.

I've had enough - we're running on cut sticky crossply slicks from now on. Still no trailer, major pain.

Oh - another point for the list 1a brigade - you can't get the right size tyres for our car in list 1a.

Grrr....
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Old 2 Jun 2006, 14:37 (Ref:1625464)   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis Bassom
Is the problem that list 1a is not really policed at all, at softer compound specials are finding there way in?
It sometimes isn't policed at events, i.e. people don't read the regs and enter on list 1B tyres when the regs say list 1A but it's not generally a major problem. I've not noticed any soft compound specials being squeezed in to 1A by the manufacturers, I think the potential market for them is so small that it just wouldn't be worth their time to think about it. At one time the Bridgestone S-02 was the only tyre to have - as with some other Bridgestone tyres (which for some reason aren't clear-cut 1a winning choices) they have a tapered compound such that the more you wear away the more of the softer compound you expose. Longevity wasn't their strong point, and nor was price and that was before you paid to have them buffed. And if you ran a Locaterfield on 13" wheels then you also had to buy a new set of wheels since they were only available in 15" and upwards. There is a small and ever-decreasing range of 13" list 1A tyres available to choose from.

Most 1B tyres aren't really that soft, certainly not 'sticky' in the context of a slick, with the possible exception of the ACB10 A24 compound which are crossplies and therefore mostly ineligible in events which allow list 1B from 2007.

Mike
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Old 3 Jun 2006, 08:17 (Ref:1625963)   #33
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Sounds like a real lack of choice/variety/options in sprinting at the moment.

I can understand why the clubs are mandating list 1a for the lesser modified classes on the groups of potential cost. Yes, you can argue about certain circumstances where list 1b may be cheaper but that is a problem with the list 1a/b split and the MSA's management of it, or lack of it.

However for the clubs to then force competitors to have to jump straight it slicks, wings etc is really dumb.

In the end there are only two things you can do -

- Petition the club(s) for a broader spread of classes with a well reasoned argument supported for facts and statistics, and NOT rants.

- Vote with your feet and only support the club that has rules that meet your requirements.

As for the MSA, you could try petitioning them (they are reviewing the blue book at the moment) but unless you are running a big high profile manufacturer sponsored series I doubt if they would listen. Again I would aim at the facts and statistics, for instance by detailing the price versus longevity discrepancy of some of the tyres in list 1a and 1b.

Or you could come racing where there is curently more choice and variety than you can shake a very big stick at!!

Or you could continue complaining on Ten Tenths and, besides having some interesting discussions, get nowhere!
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Old 3 Jun 2006, 22:54 (Ref:1626309)   #34
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its all very interesting denis and you taught me a lot about tyres with that pointy thing you keep sticking in the tread. you know my phylosophy. i hate seeing my new hard earned tyres being buffed so race on new toyos,frighten myself silly and let you past on the last lap!! then we stick em on a road car to get the tread back into shape and do what i did on wednesday night...hooked it round a roundabout,got stopped by a copper and spent half an hour trying to explain that i WANT to wear me tyres out!!!!
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Old 4 Jun 2006, 09:12 (Ref:1626611)   #35
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Wearing your tyres out by driving on them is a bad thing, you just build be heat and cause them to harden!

I have buffed Toyo's down to less than 4mm and they have still been competitve after a season provided you rotate front to back and left to right every couple of races. If you don't rotate them then front stiffer end (ooh err) will be shot after half a season.

By the way I have two pointy things, a durometer for checking tyre hardness and a pyrometer for checking temperatures across the tyre. Can't remember which one we played with on your car but you are welcome to borrow both.

PS. From all the pictures I have seen of your car it is way to stiff which is giving your Toyo's a really hard time!
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Old 4 Jun 2006, 09:49 (Ref:1626633)   #36
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Dennis is right, buffed tyres will actually last longer and work better than unbuffed. Reason, the blocks of tread on a new tyre will squirm about and this will generate heat causing them to go off and also harden. It is false economy not to buff. The Kumhos 1b's I am using at the moment do not require buffing so save money in that respect.

I think the modprods were better when tyres were free Dennis and maybe for the survival that should be reconsidered. For what Toyo put in was it worth it, when I negotiated the Falken deal it was a differnt kettle, they gave us £25,000 a year and that meant good prize money (whats prize money you may ask today!). Let Toyos stay in if they want and give tyres to encourage Toyo use but let them run against other makes as well. It may work well for them if front runners are using their rubber!

One of the reason I am not doing it (ModProds) now is they could not supply the tyre size for my car which is another problem if you restrict use to certain makes/types in fact Kumho are the only company I have seen that make a 265-45-16 to my knowledge that fits my wheels like a glove not only meaning I do not have to spend an arm and a leg on wheels but also my final drive ratio is correct which would also have to be changed if I had to go up to 17 or 18" covers. The suspension will not work properly either with the constrains of the rules if you fit a taller tyre and then lower the car to compensate as the roll centres will go off the scale.

Last edited by Al Weyman; 4 Jun 2006 at 09:52.
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Old 4 Jun 2006, 14:47 (Ref:1626823)   #37
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I feel another thread coming on re the tyres.
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Old 4 Jun 2006, 16:41 (Ref:1626901)   #38
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Go for it!
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Old 4 Jun 2006, 18:12 (Ref:1626949)   #39
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thanks denis. trouble is we do so many different series with the old rover its a clat changing springs etc all the time but if we get a decent grid up and a bit more racing ill settle down to one of them and keep the car at one setting. hopfully toyo. although it dont half hang on with the slicks!!
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Old 5 Jun 2006, 12:16 (Ref:1627491)   #40
jonners
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Weyman
buffed tyres will actually last longer and work better than unbuffed
This fact is universally accepted but it is NEVER mentioned by the 1a brigade.

Surely, this is the best evidence there is that bog standard off the shelf kwik fit tyres aren't suitable for motorsport.

Having tyres buffed down so they work better - and all the associated logistical problems and expenses - just because some people think 1a is cheaper and fairer is PURE AND UTTER MADNESS

Why not ban people from using racing brake fluid?? The argument's the same.

And why is the 1a brigade so quiet about all this????
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Old 5 Jun 2006, 12:29 (Ref:1627497)   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonners
This fact is universally accepted but it is NEVER mentioned by the 1a brigade.

Surely, this is the best evidence there is that bog standard off the shelf kwik fit tyres aren't suitable for motorsport.

Having tyres buffed down so they work better - and all the associated logistical problems and expenses - just because some people think 1a is cheaper and fairer is PURE AND UTTER MADNESS

Why not ban people from using racing brake fluid?? The argument's the same.

And why is the 1a brigade so quiet about all this????
You're ranting again.

Who are the 1a brigade and what are they being quiet about?
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Old 5 Jun 2006, 13:48 (Ref:1627559)   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis Bassom
You're ranting again
Moi???
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Old 5 Jun 2006, 18:05 (Ref:1627735)   #43
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>>>>>>>>>just because some people think 1a is cheaper and fairer is PURE AND UTTER MADNESS

Jonners

It's not wrong, it's just DIFFERENT. We have a choice so please do not castigate those that think differently to you.

If it's the rules, you've got two choices: put up or shove off. The market will triumph - if no-one patronises the series that run only 1a tyres, the organisers will have to change or close. But if there's a thriving market for drivers with 1a only, then the classes will survive.

Interesting thread, but I'm getting a bit lost now. I thought you were complaining because your 1a tyres were declared non-compliant and couldn't afford new ones, now you're running cut slicks which IMHO are completely outside the spirit (I accept not the letter) of the r/going rules.

Repeat Denis' question - who are the shadowy "1a Brigade" - are they an off-shoot of the Baader-Meinhoff gang?

Baffled of Bromham
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Old 6 Jun 2006, 11:23 (Ref:1628346)   #44
jonners
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I know I've been ranting uncontrollably but I don't think what I've said is unclear

I mentioned above that I had some 1a tyres that became non compliant when the new edition of the blue book came out - this was mentioned as one example of how daft the 1a list is

As for being different that's fine in my book but not when it makes no sense.

The fact is that those in our sport who would prefer not to raise these issues greatly out number those who are in at the sharp end with the rule making and so forth. Rule making is a thankless task - I know that - and I also know that you can't please everyone. But that's no excuse for silly rule making - or more importantly, clinging on to rules that no longer make sense.

List 1 or whatever it was known when it first appeared was brought in because of pressure from tyre companies who sponsored production saloon car racing (Uniroyal and Firestone if I remember correctly). I remember watching races where there was loads of fuss about turbo boost levels and tyres - the Yokohama A001 HFR was only available in certain sizes so the playing field wasn't level. This predated so called R compound tyres.

We're a long way down the line now but R compounds are very widespread and available from numerous manufacturers. Ironically, suitable list 1a tyres aren't available in as many sizes.

So, my view is that 1a no longer serves a purpose.

And please don't repeat all those arguments about them wearing out too fast. That has already been refuted in this thread and as for those comments about heavier more powerful car wearing them out etc - my comment is that's nonsense - why should drivers of the heavy powerful stuff be able to insist that other competitors run on hard tyres?? That's like saying the heavy cars MUST run on soft tyres.

As explained earlier in the thread, I have switched to historic classes where cut slicks are allowed. You won't find a bigger supporter of roadgoing racing than me but even though our car is one of the very few to arrive on the road I'm now competing in 'trailer' classes.

I agree that the 1a classes will survive if that's what everybody wants. But if they have no choice, then what has 1a achieved?? The answers are all set out above.

But still the 1a brigade sit smugly on what they think is the moral high ground. Who are they?? Well, I've come across the 1a mentality so many times that perhaps I'm guilty of putting people in boxes but they are the people out there who winge in paddocks all over the place about people who win or set records on 1b tyres as if they're war criminals.

And they are also the people who insert 1a tyres into regulations without any real justification and then refuse to change on the basis that they want to be the same as everybody else. How's that for being different, then???

Now, I've made my point and even repeated some of the points against 1a that I've made previously. Rather than just quoting some of my comments out of context, let's hear your substantive points in favour of 1a (note that comments such as "it's in the rules" won't win the debate).

And by the way, I don't think the "put up or shove off" mentality works particularly well and I don't think many people appreciate that way of thinking. Who, precisely, do you think you are? If you can't deal with strong arguments against your own point of view perhaps you should climb down a bit.

Consider yourself a member of the 1a brigade...
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Old 6 Jun 2006, 21:14 (Ref:1628770)   #45
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Consider this thread in danger of being closed..
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