360MRC 24hrs Race Proposition

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

Any of you gentlemen looked at the regs in the Blue Book for 2011 re refueling ?

Take that as a no then Claire, enlighten us do. I haven't got my 2011 BB yet.

[Peter Mallett]

Claire,

Afraid not, but I assume the regs for fuelling are pretty much what you guys placed in the 6hrs regs. And frankly if I ever went out on a track where cars were running the standard configuration without mods (the toyota was midified) I'd be pretty worried.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Better to insist on bespoke tanks and dry break fuelling as per the six hours. Besides there are very few series that allow standard tankage simply because of the fuel spill problems so most cars prepared for the track will have the necessary tankage anyway.

Uhhh? I'd think most cars prepared for the track have standard tanks TBQH.

Dry break systems will still be a problem on hatchbacks/coupes/GTs becuase of the firewall situation.

[Peter Mallett]

Not in my experience and frankly it's dangerous.

and mine is a hatchback.

[Mike Bell]

What's dangerous?

I can't see anything in blue book that says filler can't be inside car- is yours such Peter?

I repeat earlier comment that some race series keep standard tank. Most likely cause of spillage from production fuel system is filler leaking, so easy to insist on race spec positive locking cap.

Filling from pumps could be made to work if organisers wanted it to.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

What's dangerous?

I can't see anything in blue book that says filler can't be inside car- is yours such Peter?

Yup. Its sealed beneath a boxed in enclosure.

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I repeat earlier comment that some race series keep standard tank. Most likely cause of spillage from production fuel system is filler leaking, so easy to insist on race spec positive locking cap.

Filling from pumps could be made to work if organisers wanted it to.

Disagree entirely. One of the fundamentals is a safe fuel system. We have the technology, its not expensive, it should be employed.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Filling from pumps could be made to work if organisers wanted it to.

.....and are prepared to pay the costs involved, which will pass through to entry fees. We're looking at it Mike and it's a costly option.

[Al Weyman]

So in my hatch back Camaro I can put a tank and filler inside the cockpit habiticle area, sounds a bit dodgy to me even if behind a bit of alloy. The standard tank is well out the way behind the rear axle and separated from the cockpit by the shell and seems a safer option to me. I dont use the standard tank but have an alloy foam filled one in the same position.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Claire,

Afraid not, but I assume the regs for fuelling are pretty much what you guys placed in the 6hrs regs. And frankly if I ever went out on a track where cars were running the standard configuration without mods (the toyota was midified) I'd be pretty worried.

You are quite right Peter, our regs for last year conform with the Blue Book for 2011

Am now off to North West London xx

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Disagree entirely. One of the fundamentals is a safe fuel system. We have the technology, its not expensive, it should be employed.

Disagree away!

Don't remember reading about any 924s expoding into fireballs due to spillage from standard tanks.

A safe refuelling system can be expensive... The cheapest dry break arrangement I calculated would cost £1400 with churns. Want a rig and you are into several £K.

BTW 6hrs doesn't insist on dry break- Sunoco churns aren't that and they are allowed. Or were when I last looked!

Yes John- whatever the cost the competitors will finish up paying it one way or the other.

[Al Weyman]

Claire if you are coming to collect shirts its real bad over here you may want to rethink.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Disagree away!

Don't remember reading about any 924s expoding into fireballs due to spillage from standard tanks.

A safe refuelling system can be expensive... The cheapest dry break arrangement I calculated would cost £1400 with churns. Want a rig and you are into several £K.

BTW 6hrs doesn't insist on dry break- Sunoco churns aren't that and they are allowed. Or were when I last looked!

Yes John- whatever the cost the competitors will finish up paying it one way or the other.

Ah, perhaps you misunderstand me. The dry break is the filling system (a' la churns) not the dry break system as per FIA GT etc. However my point remains (and you Al). You need a foam filled tank that has vertical filling.

Anything else is somewhat dangerous. Whether 924s have caught fire or not I wouldn't and in fact didn't when I had the choice, enter a series that allowed standard fuel systems.

[terence]

Obviously a little confusion here! All that is required is for the tank/filler,if in a 'hatch' type vehicle,be covered/sealed in a metallic material. Ally being the obvious choice. As for side fill cars,would anyone really want to spin on thier own fuel? Easyist solution is to mount a Filler in the boot,in the vertical position,fit the required 'Splash Bowl',something like £40 from Brise Fabrication,speak to Tim.
No reason not to get some foam into a standard tank,which then makes it conform,just make sure the level sensor is not restricted by the foam. Bleading obvious? yes but you would be surprised by how many people forget about it.

[Al Weyman]

Can I use a cylinder of Propane?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Ah, perhaps you misunderstand me. The dry break is the filling system (a' la churns) not the dry break system as per FIA GT etc. However my point remains (and you Al). You need a foam filled tank that has vertical filling.

Yes, dry break means just that. Sunoco churns just have a positive close off device to stop spillage in case they fall over or you let go.

Foam in tanks not compulsory in UK.

Blue book says refuelling only allowed in pit lane or paddock......

[Piglet]

For the Lotus 1000k refuelling was a choice of churns and/or the fuel pumps at Brands. It was relay so the time take to take a car out to the pumps, refuel and return to the pit lane was largely irrelevant.

[Al Weyman]

Foam is a good idea compulsory or not as it stops the fuel slopping about and picking up air as well however it will turn your tank into a very slow filler.

[Al Weyman]

Years ago in the 60's when I was working at the race place in Muswell Hill a guy who worked for Piper Ferrari called Fax Dunn (a real funny character if ever there was one!) invented a fast filler which you simply held your hand over the air inlet and turned the churn upside down and no fuel would flow till you took your hand away. he annouced to us all one day on a Monday morning that he was lying in bed Sunday morning with his girlfriend reading the Times and the idea suddenly hit him! We all bust a gut but it worked. He called it the Fax Filler and Grand Prix Metalcraft situated in the same building started producing them in alloy, are these still around?

[midgetman]

Peter, my respect for you is unbounded, but I beg to differ. When you raced at MG Live I expect 50% of the cars had standard fuel tanks with or without foam in them. Probably without.

I know for a fact that 12.5% of the entries in the 360 had a standard tank.

BTW I've been talking to a scrutineer (co-incidentally the 924 Champs scrutineer as it turns out) and he would be unhappy about me routing the fuel filler into the hatch because of the problems associated with sealing the box so any spillage didn't leak out.

So I'm in a bit of a quandary anyway. I'm hoping that if we can drive economically we can manage the 360-ish miles on one tank of fuel, if not we'll just pop over to the garage and fill up. The time we saved by not fuelling at every stop in the pit lane will more than compensate, I've calculated. 14 gallon tank @ 25mpg = 350 miles...the drivers are in training so we can manage 3hours each, so it'll be one stop at 2hrs 57 minutes, one at 5 hrs for a splash'n'dash in the paddock, then back out for a trundle to the finish. Only we needn't trundle with a couple of gallons of gas and a light car.

I'm probably going to switch to the diesel LT van engine to help economy.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Yes, dry break means just that. Sunoco churns just have a positive close off device to stop spillage in case they fall over or you let go.

Ok so let's agree to disagree, Sunoco (or similar) churns are a must. Therefore vertical fill.

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Foam in tanks not compulsory in UK.

Who the **** cares whether it's compulsory? Either be sensible or be stupid.

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Blue book says refuelling only allowed in pit lane or paddock......

*yawn*

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Claire,
........ And frankly if I ever went out on a track where cars were running the standard configuration without mods (the toyota was midified) I'd be pretty worried.

You already did Peter, with me at the 360...
Ah I see Max beat me to it

I'm all for a safe method of filling (whatever it may be, and minor mods may be needed)) but modifying fuel systems generally is fraught with difficulty. There was one car last time that would pass me at full chat then round the next corner would be almost stationary, can't remember who it was

[Al Weyman]

Do you really expect 25mpg in a racing scenario Max, sounds ambitious to me.

[midgetman]

Good point. I could fit the 924 Turbo tank which is 18 gallons so maybe won't need to get 25. Using full throttle will require written permission of the team manager, so a gentle, disciplined approach will be required of my other driver. My biggest problem will be getting him to drive for 3 hours without falling asleep. We may have to refit the stereo, possibly even a DVD player and watch old Reginald Molehusband re-runs.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Who the **** cares whether it's compulsory? Either be sensible or be stupid.

In that case, for one particular car, I am stupid.

Thank you.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Claire if you are coming to collect shirts its real bad over here you may want to rethink.

Got back at 6.30! turned back Al after I spoke to you and it took me that long to get back ...dont ya just love rear wheel drive bemmers in the snow!!!