Buschwhacking?

Hazza · 20 Aug 2006, 13:33 (Ref:1687345)

Okay this seems to be a fairly big issue, so lets open up a lively debate.

The way I see it is that the Cup Guys can been seen as strangling the Busch series and hogging all the prize money, I remember seeing this being rased as an issue around about the time of the Mexico City race a while back, but now it is seeming to be a real issue as all but a few races have been won by Cup guys (We'll include Harvick in this calculation) and they have been 'hogging all the prize money'.

The flip side is that would you watch as much if the Cup guys were not in it? I know I wouldn't. As a new comer to the series oooh, my laws about 5 years ago? I remember watching a Busch race at Texas, and to me it wasn't the same as now, today the racing is exciting and fast paced with all the cup guys running in it and pushing the level up, as opposed to back then, where it seemed like a whole lot of nobodys running around during amateur hour, I suppose that would be different if you were a seasoned fan of somone like Martin Truex when he did the Busch series, but how many Truex fans are there compared to Junior fans?

How could you address it? My favorite soloution is to kick the Cup guys out before the Busch guys, ie if you have 37 busch guys and 12 cup runners, send the slowest 6 Cup guys home instead of just the slowest.

Thats not fair you may say, however, isn't this sort of like what goes on with Owner Points in the Cup Series? I remember Robby Gordon (okay, not the greatest example) not qualifying for the Daytona 500 by one spot due to owner points, and for what? Dale Jarret in 43rd postion or something?

My theory: Busch is for Busch, Cup is for Cup, however some cup guys should be there as a bonus.

Anyway, what do you belive...?

Knowlesy · 20 Aug 2006, 13:52 (Ref:1687364)

I would still watch if the Cup drivers weren't in the Busch Series, but it wouldn't be the same would it?

The big names give the series a real boost and are a major attraction. And the racing, my word, it is even more excellent with those guys in. And the regular Busch guys, I'm sure, must relish battling with them which adds more to the mix!

I'm all for it.

Your solution, Hazza seems pretty good. People would scream it'd be a travesty and all that, but it would help things. However, I don't necessarily feel we need to limit Cup runners in Busch anyways. If we did though, that is the way I'd go for sure (or something similar).

muggle not · 20 Aug 2006, 14:02 (Ref:1687373)

Limit the number of races per year the Cup guys are permitted to run in Busch.

Erki · 20 Aug 2006, 15:36 (Ref:1687432)

Make Busch cars more different from Cup cars.
Don't give prize money to full time Cup teams.

Knowlesy · 20 Aug 2006, 15:40 (Ref:1687435)

But then they won't compete anyways.

Hazza · 20 Aug 2006, 23:28 (Ref:1687797)

Don't they just compete for the track time it brings? (sometimes)

Knowlesy · 21 Aug 2006, 16:36 (Ref:1688161)

So they say!

Track time is probably the main factor, but I'm quite sure the money helps things.

Erki · 22 Aug 2006, 13:34 (Ref:1688743)

Money in the Busch series isn't that big anyway. Guys like Harvick, Edwards, Hamlin compete in NNC and NBS full time this year, this means they also do the NBS races separate from the main game, no track time factor in that one.

What if they actually just like to race?

**FIRE** · 22 Aug 2006, 16:35 (Ref:1688879)

Quote:

Originally Posted by muggle not

Limit the number of races per year the Cup guys are permitted to run in Busch.

I think this is the best solution.

Shotteh · 22 Aug 2006, 22:07 (Ref:1689152)

Having Cup drivers allowed to participate for the Busch title does somewhat defeat the point of having Busch as a feeder series. However, lets not forget in the old days drivers like Jim Clark would perform in lesser series aswell. I think Busch needs cup drivers, but they shouldn't be allowed to participate in every race, and thus not be able to win the championship. A simple limit on the amount of races they can run is the best solution I believe.

kingfloopy · 22 Aug 2006, 23:45 (Ref:1689219)

The Busch series needs the drivers as a name to draw people in. However it would be more interesting to me at least to see more Busch only guys. I think in the next few years this will change as Busch cars get farther away from the car of the future. There is some discussion that old style cup cars will be the new Busch cars and the old Busch cars will get bumped down to lesser series (Busch North, West Series, etc.) and possibly new European, Canadian, and Mexican series. This seems like a likely scenario. There is also a chance if the manufacturers support it that "pony" cars like the Mustang may be the new Busch cars. This will create a wider gap between the two series and would allow manufacturers a chance to plug other models.

There is also a possbility that the ARCA series will expand since they use the same cars as Cup does now. A imagine a lot more development drivers and Cup drivers will look there if the teams have a glut of chassis to use.

J.D.

duke_toaster · 23 Aug 2006, 19:16 (Ref:1689904)

Here's an idea: merge the two (using Busch cars) and then have a race for the top 20 or 30 non qualifiers

R59 · 23 Aug 2006, 19:23 (Ref:1689912)

(For the benefit of the European's who don't follow it very closely)
When you consider that most of the teams running Cup also run Busch teams, even if they have different drivers.

Busch stalwarts like Jon Wood / Stacy Compton run under the STMotorsports banner that also runs the 21 cup car, not to mention two Craftsman Trucks with none other than Marcos Ambrose in the Team Australia truck.
They are small fish, compared to the big boys like RCR, Ganassi, Penske, etc..

There is good money in Busch, take a look at some of the driver's earnings, it's not cup money, but as it's based on many factors, including gate takings, that's not surprising.

It's all one BIG circus.

The idea that the Car Of Tommorow will create a "bump down" of cars into lesser series, not sure that idea will work, unless COT brings in more money in terms of TV, Syndication, etc... then the pennies will cascade down, giving the lower series more money, which they'll need to run the "higher spec" cars.

And the idea that Jochen Mass has of bringing old Busch cars over to Europe, at around 100K each, nice little profit margin he'll be making there!!

Rob.

R59 · 23 Aug 2006, 19:41 (Ref:1689929)

I should add, the Busch cars, while a little more restricted, are more advanced in their valvetrain.

A Cup Chevy runs a SB2.2 motor, which revs to 9000+, and is a flat tappet motor.
A Busch Chevy runs a older 18degree motor, which revs to about 8500, and has roller lifters/rockers (more reliable!).

Cup motors were running 750 or 850cfm carbs, where Busch run 390cfm.
Cup cars have a 110inch wheelbase, Busch is 105inch.

There are other differences.

Bottom line is between 100 and 200 bhp.

Rob.

Alex Toropov · 26 Aug 2006, 12:39 (Ref:1692758)

if anyone here saw "Inside Busch" program on Motors TV this summer, he may remember one interesting remark made by David Green:

he said, there's no issue with Cup drivers coming into Busch Series and competing against Busch regular drivers. the real issue is with huge Cup teams coming to race against Busch teams like ppc Racing or Brewco, which have much less budget and resources that Cup ones.

on a good day guys like Green or Kenny Wallace have no difficulty to beat Cup drivers like Greg Biffle, if the latter is driving on equal machinery (recently Biffle was racing in #66 Brewco Ford quite often). however, if Biffle is behind the wheel of Roush Racing Ford (#60, #16, what ever), it gets much tougher to catch him.

nickyf1 · 27 Aug 2006, 09:49 (Ref:1693405)

I would whatch Busch Racing anytime, I have not whatched a cup race in a few years, but a hell of alot of busch races, I love the busch series. The rookies in the Busch Series also do get to see how wel they can run with the cup guys, but there should be a limeted number of Cup drivers in Busch. I would still whatch Busch racing, even if the top guys get booted out, It was the Busch series that got me into NASCAR around 2002, I have 'Grown up' if you like, with the Busch series. So no difference to me.