[Movies] Senna Movie

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Yes and no. There is much less starvation and misery, there is more prosperity. But there is exclusion - if you live in a favela, you are seen very differently as someone from a decent neighbourhood, even with the same job. There is violence - drugs are killing the lives of millions, and gangs are making the lives of the rest terrible.

Where did I say that there wasn't things like that ? I said there are still big problems. It's a huge country, with the 5th population in the world, it's not like a tiny country with less population than a big metropolis. And I think you picture the "killing the lives of millions, and gangs of the rest terrible" as a hollywood movie... there's violence in the big cities as much as there is in many parts of the world, not "millions" are being killed like a war. It's a reality for any big country like Brazil, and there are not many in the world, you know. But it's like talking to the wind.

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Yes there are more heroes now. But there are antiheroes too. Several of Brazil's top footballers are unprofessional (like Ronaldinho).

I didn't say there are more heroes now, there are more successful sportsmen and more sports where brazilians are more successful than in F1. That's what I said, it's different. There are no heroes or anti-heroes, the meaning of the word is overrated, this is pathetic. And abou football, I think you're plain wrong, but that's just my opinion and this is not a subject to be discussed here.

[Oran Park Forever]

Moving right along.............back to the subject!!

Time to nominate Senna's best win(s)
For me I can't split Estoril '85 & Interlagos '91.

At Estoril Ayrton was literally on another level to the rest, first win, lead every lap, over a minute lead, drove through the same pools of water that sent many others spearing off (at a slower speed!).........just sublime.

At Interlagos Ayrton held off the threat of 2 superior FW14s whilst battling gearbox issues from 2/3rds distance..............then, those amazing final 6 laps when he locked it in 6th gear & dragged the MP4/6 around a slippery track....on slicks.....& held out Patrese.
Have never seen Ron Dennis so animated after a win!!

I'll also throw in Monaco '89, where Ayrton drove the first stage of the race at 'Prost's pace'. Then when they strike traffic, Senna hits the afterburner & disappears. From half distance, with a 50 second lead, more gearbox issues leave him without 3rd or 4th (or both) but changes his technique & retains a handy gap, leaving Prost clueless to the problem.
The Master of Monaco!


Now remember, there is no wrong answer to this question. It's each to their own & 41 choices.


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[Richard B]

1983 Donington European Grand Prix, in particular the 1st lap.

[Aysedasi]

1993......


But yes, that has to be it for me. That first lap was the most unbelievable thing I have ever witnessed on a race track - sheer genius in a race car.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by Richard B

1983 Donington European Grand Prix, in particular the 1st lap.

Agreed, the greatest lap ever!.....the second lap wasn't too bad either where he pulled 4 seconds.......& the third (another 2 or so)

I like Murray's comment on about lap 4, "This is an astounding effort, he's driving (interupts himself) LOOK AT THE GAP!!!
Then James' timeless words, "This is pure Senna!"

How true...

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[chunterer]

Magic Senna!!

There's only ever been about half a dozen drivers in the history of F1, who you could say for definite when you were about to watch a race, were likely to do something really special....

[Bononi]

I like that flying lap in Monaco, can't remember the year, but in the end Prost shake his head in denial...

[bella]

says a lot about f1 nowadays that our idea of "something special" is seeing some youth extend his tyre life beyond the norm...

[djb]

says the old lady, chuckle....
mind you, as the years go by on this forum, listening to you driving that crappy old shakey 320, or selling phones or whatever, I guess time has gone by and you are probably 30 or something now....older than mr vettles anyway.

cheers from the colonies

[bella]

nearly 30 i daren't think what percentage of the f1 grid are younger than i am

it's totally mystifying that some f1 drivers were only 2 or 3 years old when senna died.

maybe there's not the scope for that level and depth of heroics from a single person any more. fangirls and fanboys are one thing but the everyday person?

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by Bononi

I like that flying lap in Monaco, can't remember the year, but in the end Prost shake his head in denial...

That would be Monaco '88 qualifying. The movie features it but for dramatic effect they used onboard footage from 1990. Prost shook his head because Senna's time was 1.5 seconds faster.

Regarding lap 1 of Donington, it's the perfect "2 minute lesson" for anyone who'd never seen Senna or was not convinced of his ability. I've shown it to many & their reaction is akin to a revelation.


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[chunterer]

I think i've only ever truly been gobsmacked about half a dozen times in my time watching F1.

That opening 2 laps by Senna at Donington
Senna Estoril 1985
Alesi on Senna Phoenix 1990
Mansell on Berger Peraltada 1990
Montoya's move on Schu in Brazil 2001 and then driving away....
Montoya on Schu Nurby 2003
Alonso on Schu at 130R 2005
Alonso on Massa, Nurby 2007
Vettel on the grass overtaking Fonz at monza

Oh, actually there maybe more but not that fairly instantly sprang to mind!

[NaBUru38]

Easy, Bononi, I agree with a lot of what you said. I tried to show that it's not all bunnies and rainbows.

Originally Posted by Bononi

And I think you picture the "killing the lives of millions, and gangs of the rest terrible" as a hollywood movie...

I'm saying that millions are taking drugs in Brazil. I won't search the actual number, but I believe I am right about that.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

Moving right along.............back to the subject!!

Time to nominate Senna's best win(s)

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Thats just not fair!
Some of my greatest memories weren't even victories. I know chunterer mentions Alesi and Senna at Phoenix, but there was a move by Senna on Alesi in Canada 1993 where they came out of the hairpin side by side.
Remember there used to be a high speed chicane then, flat out, these cars were on full tanks, Ferrari V12's with major power and Senna driving a basic Ford engined Mclaren. He started 8th and was 3rd within 2 laps on a dry track....

This is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eut-9j3B_LQ

Listen to the commentary.

It's difficult as a fan not to say the Donington race and that amazing 1st lap, yet Senna himself didn't particularly rate it because of all the electronic systems on the car, traction control etc. He had written to Mosley to remove all the tech. He himself said in interviews that Estoril was a better drive.
I remember Portugal 1985, that stunning black and gold Lotus, day glo yellow helmet being driven by a genius. Still have that on video, and transferred to DVD of course.

His 1984 win in Monaco, well without the FIA getting involved it would have been.

I'm actually going to throw a different one in.
1988 Japanese GP, Senna stalled the car and thankfully the start at Suzuka is on a slope so he could jumpstart the car.
He was 14th into the first corner, his team-mate is in the lead in THE dominant car that season, Senna over-takes the field, until on lap 27 he over-takes Prost. A few laps later it begins to rain, and Senna points to the sky.
As he crossed the line, both arms are punching his helmet and with a clenched fist repeatedly bangs his helmet during the warm down lap. Beyond doubt, he was crying tears of joy.
I can watch that over and over, which is difficult because it's a bl**** Macca!!!

[Oran Park Forever]

Agreed 'Hero', this one question has so many answers & like you said, there are countless other races that stand out too.......& let's not forget his qualifying laps!

Having been trackside for his Adelaide '85 'screamer' was truly an honour.....as was '88,'89,'90,'91,'93.

I recall one of his 65 actually swayed Nigel Roebuck (honestly!).....if only for that particular issue of Autosport, in his column following the 1990 Italian GP where Senna had a troubled final qualifying session. With only 5 minutes remaining Senna had yet to put in a full lap, instead doing 3 runs where he'd 'try' different sectors, then return to the garage.
By this stage the Italian crowd had begun their celebrations (urged on by Cesare Fiorio's gestures)...............but then!
Senna leaves pit lane & in one go destroys their party. So much so that even the Tifosi couldn't help but applaud Ayrton on his in lap.

This was the only time Roebuck 'seemed' convinced..............until May '94 that is!


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[Mr V]

Finally bougth the film last week and watched it over the weekend. I know it sounds silly as i knew what was about to happen, but on the onboard at Imola 1994 i could feel my heart beating faster.

I was never a fan of his, but the film does (as was it's intention) show a different side to him.

[GORDON STREETER]

I thought it was pretty good, my only criticism is the LOUD music that didn't seem to fit and drowned the speech in parts, IMHO.

[chunder]

I think if you are a racing fan and have a thorough knowledge of that era you might be a little underwhelmed as I was.

On reflection of the two racing films released this year I would definately watch the TT one again, but not so the Senna film.

Some of the insight was fascinating, the focus on his mind, but I knew all this anyway, that wasn't a revelation. And I can see how those who knew little of Senna and his relationship with Prost would be amazed.

What stays with me was an element of him thinking the whole world was against him because they were French which I can sympathise with him a bit, but this bears all the classic traits of someone super obsessive and paranoid.

But the bit that always stays is the surreal level of emotion displayed when he won in Brazil, that scared me that someone of that level could be so utterly lost in the moment, given every percent of himself and be so completely out of control to sound maniacal on the radio, and made me sympathise even more with Alain that he could never really beat a man who seemed so utterly lost in himself and his desire to win at all costs, even though he was a relatively fair driver.

Away from racing, a gentleman, possibly the finest ambassador we have ever had and certainly the most charitable.

But in the cockpit, for me scarily out of control emotionally at times. And anyone who can do what he did in Suzuka in 1990 will NEVER be considered a true champion by me and many others, no mater what he did elsewhere or how quick he was.

Jackie Stewart knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he did THAT interview with Ayrton, that is why Senna was so riled by what he said. Prost knew it too, and for him to try and beat him the way he did speaks volumes for his spirit.

[djb]

very well put there Chunder, very well. The comment of those who knew little of him (or racing) hits the mark as well-my wife and sister-in-law are perfect examples of this in how they took it in.
The structure of the film certainly was "operatic" in a dramatic way wasnt it, which ultimately gave it a wider audience (my wife for example) and hopefully some of those who saw it will have either the interest or the curiosity to consider a somewhat less "idol" take on him.
Your comments along the lines of "winning at all costs" really does touch on the unsettled feelings Ive always had with him (or Schuey sr for that matter) where with some people, this is to be admired (second place is the first loser attitude) it doesnt sit with me well, and for me as well it diminishes in my eyes any person whose hubris plays such a part in their success.

[Oran Park Forever]

Guys, let it go!

We've already heard all this.......
It seems obsession takes all forms.


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[strider]

Originally Posted by chunder

Prost knew it too, and for him to try and beat him the way he did speaks volumes for his spirit.

You mean like when Prost deliberately took out Senna at Suzuka the year before Senna did it to him? That's Manish Pandey's view as well as mine and countless others. The overhead helicopter shot provides the proof.

[chunder]

Haha, there is no doubt at all that Alain took him out, but he did it at the slowest part of the track and made it look so damned awful that he quite rightly took the flack for it. And made himself look an idiot, something I ams ure he would admit!

I dont think there is any doubt Alain did that on purpose, but colliding with someone at about 80 mph, and just making sure they cant get turn in is a little different to planting someone in flat out and taking their wing off at 150mph.

Just because JMB and Suzuka wouldnt change the rules for him!

But it seems we are boring, so let's move on.

I do remember this was a discussion FORUM, not a one post statement board.

[strider]

Originally Posted by chunder

Just because JMB and Suzuka wouldnt change the rules for him!

But it seems we are boring, so let's move on.

I do remember this was a discussion FORUM, not a one post statement board.

It's difficult to make more than one post at at time!

For the record, Suzuka and Balestre, presumably with Prost's agreement, changed the pole position from the usual side to the less favourable other side and that's what annoyed Ayrton so much. But it's all water under the bridge now.

[chillibowl]

finally some good F1 citizens in Winnipeg managed to convince a small art house theater to screen the movie...about a year or so late but we went last night.

it didnt do much to settle any old arguments as seen by some of the completely friendly conversation that went on after the screening (like a live version of ten-tenths). i suppose that is the mark of a good documentary that it inspires conversation.

of course much of the subject matter was known both from my own recollections and from what i read here and other books, but i was surprised with how much the attention the filmmakers gave to his faith and the theme of politics vs religion.

Prost made a comment, something along the lines of how do you relate/talk to someone who has this type of faith. the political Prost is painted as the 'bad guy' and the religious Senna is depicted, particularly post race Brazil 91, as a quasi sort of religious figure laid out with hands nailed to the wheel. maybe im reading too much into it but those images combined with him talking about his faith (a lot) naturally lead me there and i found it a bit off putting.

other than that though i thought it was great despite no real new insights and some amazing footage...although i forgot how bad video quality was in the 80/90's....i dont think i can watch sports unless its in HD now.

[strider]

I read this article about Senna's religious belief. It's by Manish Pandey. It certainly made think: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/manish..._b_909096.html