[Movies] Senna Movie

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

Firstly, slightly envious of you attending decades of Silverstone testing!

Living 40 minutes from Silverstone made the annual trip there easy, it cost nothing and you could walk round the entire circuit. Brands was the same.
First went in 1986, when I was old enough to drive myself and stood opposite the pits watching Senna chatting to different people. On track sublime but what blew me away at the time was the Williams Honda, the ground shook. I loved brands ever since, it had been my first GP in 1982.
Every year after that, I'd go to tyre tests and until the late 90's used to get across to the paddock.
Met a few of the drivers there and stood at pit exit taking photos, one time in 1994, a friend and I had found an empty marshals post on Hangar Straight, we were taking photos and Schumacher came out of Becketts hard, now eagle vision or whatever, he spotted us, slowed to a complete stop beside us and did a full race start, minus traction control option obviously. lol
Those were wonderful time, access to drivers and teams during testing was so different than at a Grand Prix.
Met Senna there and later being a Ferrari fan, my friend and I stationed ourselves outside the Ferrari motorhome, Prost cam by, signed a few autographs but didn't say a word. Very French, very arrogant and backed up what my views of him were.
We could see him and Alesi inside de-briefing and the crowd had gone, I asked on of the mechanics in Italian ( I'm Italian BTW) if Alesi could come out for a moment for autographs.
The man was all smiles, chatty and delighted to pose for photos. He was French too. Just some of my memories...

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

I remember my time at the 1990 British GP & yes you're right, the local Mansell & or Ferrari fans gave Senna a horrid time. With England being the F1 'centre of the universe' & Senna driving only for English teams, it's no wonder Senna would've put up a barrier against the local press, which they then would've played on to their own advantage........especially Roebuck!

I hated Roebuck, especially after he practically re-wrote his bias after Senna's death, claiming him the greatest and almost forgetting everything anti-Senna comment he'd ever put to paper.
The other thing that many people don't realise, or simply don't know, which would explain Senna's reluctance to deal with the press was an incident he had at Snetterton during his F3 season.
Now, I never witnessed it but have read about it in Senna biographies, iirc, Brundle and Senna had an altercation, Brundle himself said he leant on him hard and Senna ran off the track. There was a report to the Clerk of the Course, which resulted in no penalty to Brundle. Senna felt it unjust and as Brundle himself stated, " He was hardly likely to get a local driver penalised in Norfolk." Brundle being a local from about 40 miles away.
From that day, Senna and the British press/ establishment were not the best of friends. You can imagine the field day they had when he vetoed Warwick joining the Norfolk team.

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

.....& history shows that The Professor never really liked doing that!

Ask Nige.......& Rene........& Eddie........& Damon........

.

Don't forget Keke...
Whats most saddening of all, Prost had the ability to not need to politically win the team. I was never a fan, just too boring to watch, but I respected him enormously.
Monaco 1985,, Senna was sent out against his will to drive round and stop other drivers from beating his time. I remember Alboreto and others saying after, in anger, what was sickening was Senna had too much ability to resort to those types of tactics.
We saw this again in 2006 with Schumacher, and once again we saw the drivers react angrily.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

First went in 1986, when I was old enough to drive myself and stood opposite the pits watching Senna chatting to different people. On track sublime but what blew me away at the time was the Williams Honda, the ground shook. I loved brands ever since, it had been my first GP in 1982.
Every year after that, I'd go to tyre tests and until the late 90's used to get across to the paddock.
Those were wonderful time, access to drivers and teams during testing was so different than at a Grand Prix.

We could see him and Alesi inside de-briefing and the crowd had gone, I asked on of the mechanics in Italian ( I'm Italian BTW) if Alesi could come out for a moment for autographs.
The man was all smiles, chatty and delighted to pose for photos. He was French too. Just some of my memories...

Now, I never witnessed it but have read about it in Senna biographies, iirc, Brundle and Senna had an altercation, Brundle himself said he leant on him hard and Senna ran off the track. There was a report to the Clerk of the Course, which resulted in no penalty to Brundle. Senna felt it unjust and as Brundle himself stated, " He was hardly likely to get a local driver penalised in Norfolk." Brundle being a local from about 40 miles away.

.

Watching F1 'for free'...now that's living! The 80s & 90s sure were the days when it was still 'motor racing', not 'sports entertainment' as it's now known......not to mention the security/lack of access, which some current stars have taken to believe they are literally above the rest of society.

I suspect Alesi's friendly nature would be thanks to his Sicilian/Italian side!

Brundle certainly played on his 'home ground' advantage when he needed to. British F3 racing was away from a global audience so the '83 season was more of an English series, with one rogue Brasilian (no doubt cast as the villain). From what I've read it was some of the fiercest racing ever seen.

Yes agreed, team tactics can sometimes go way too far. Senna always regreted the Monaco deal & vowed never to do the same again. In fact it probably drove him to become even more in control of what he did behind the wheel. (Monaco '88 was definitely the final straw!)

There's a great moment in the "Season with McLaren" doco when Ron gets on the radio to Ayrton (at the Adelaide GP) & says:"Stop for tyres!".........there's a brief pause, then Ayrton replys....."NO!!" Funniest part is Dave Ryan then muttering "He's saying NO", as if to say how dare he say 'NO' to Marlboro McLaren International!

I guess in the heat of battle they sometimes forgot that he's Ayrton Senna!

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[Carsandmotorracing]

Am I the only one here that thinks it's sad that it takes a movie for people to realize who this great racer and human being was?

[strider]

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

Am I the only one here that thinks it's sad that it takes a movie for people to realize who this great racer and human being was?

No you're not. It is sad, but there an awful lot of things that people don't realize because they seem to go through life wearing blinkers.

[chunder]

This is true.

It is very easy to watch a film and say things. Most of the things in the film were already known.

But the sad and predictable thing from the movie was the bias towards Ayrton. This was obvious and very likely to happen clearly in a falm based around him.

Compared to a view of the whole seasons this is always likely to be the case.

I think the thing you have to say is that there will likely never be a rivalry to compare between these two in the sport again. Prost was the one that made it happen by suggesting Ayrton come to Mclaren, he didn't shy away from the confrontation, but maybe coped with the after effects of dealing with Senna rather more differentlly than he expected.

I have found some of the video clips posted on here very interesting, you get a much better view when both sides are put out.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by strider

No you're not. It is sad, but there an awful lot of things that people don't realize because they seem to go through life wearing blinkers.

Crikey how true is that.

I once had a phone call with a driver I knew well back in 1999 about his F3 team. He was rather fraught and was convinced he wasn't gettting the rub of the green compared to his teammate who was the best thing since sliced bread, but to the outside world he simply looked crap, which he most definitely wasn't.

But that's for another thread, another day.

[chunder]

Were they french and English by any chance?

[bella]

sounds like the story of every wronged racing driver in the history of motorsport, and all but the champion of a series is a wronged racing driver

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by chunder

But the sad and predictable thing from the movie was the bias towards Ayrton. This was obvious and very likely to happen clearly in a falm based around him.


I have found some of the video clips posted on here very interesting, you get a much better view when both sides are put out.

My particular favourite video is of the Suzuka '89 race start.
Prost's jump start was not emphasised in the movie however the film makers could have put it in sequence with the famous chicane incident & in doing so, nailed Prost to the wall! Clearly this was not their intention.

Certainly the movie features bias toward Senna, how can there not be......the clue is in the title!
But at the same time it certainly wasn't a witch hunt, as the above scenario proves.......& you can't re-write history, raw footage is what it is!

.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by chunder

Were they french and English by any chance?

No.

Originally Posted by bella

sounds like the story of every wronged racing driver in the history of motorsport, and all but the champion of a series is a wronged racing driver

Some driver or other's always got a story to tell, it's normally just a question of whether to believe it.

But then it can also just be a case of knowing what to look for, or whether the eyes and brain are speaking the same language.

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

They say 'you should never meet your heroes' as it will always leave you disappointed.

To that I say it depends on who your hero is!

.

I met Ayrton Senna Da Silva (as he was known at the time) during his F3 career and always found him approachable, although at the time he wasn't a hero.
I followed his F1 career in awe but must admit living in Didcot, (the home town of Mansell's Williams team) at the time my hero was Nigel Mansell.
I met Ayrton at a couple of F1 tyre tests at Silverstone, during one of which he signed my copy of "Hard edge of genius", I was shocked when he asked me for my name so he could dedicate it to me.

That dreadful weekend will never be forgotten, I'd recently moved to Banbury (home of the Simtek Team) and was clearly shocked by the tragedy of Roland Ratzenberger. The following day my hero (now he was a Williams driver!) was killed.
I drove to Didcot with a colour photo ripped from an F1 magazine and some flowers. As I approached the Williams gates the sight of all the flowers and other tributes brought me to tears. I stuck the poster to the gates and on the spur of the moment wrote accross it.

"Williams will find a replacement driver formula 1 won't"

I was interviewed by a TV crew at the time but never saw the footage screened. However, my picture tribute was quoted in the national press, shown on TV and more latterly in Tom Rubython's book "The life of Senna" in which he incorrectly stated that Williams released the quote as a press release.

[NaBUru38]

I watch the movie last Friday with dad. He was a Prost fan -unlike his late brother-, but he loved the film. I did too. I learned a lot of Senna's life in a way reading Wikipedia can't. Watching him talk gives much more information about his feelings.

With help from subtitles, I could understand the speech Brazilian journalists in original language.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Richard B

I met Ayrton Senna Da Silva (as he was known at the time) ...

Sorry to be a nitpicker but the correct is "da" (da Silva), in portuguese prepositions are not in capitals. As far as I know he always been known as that.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by Richard B

"Williams will find a replacement driver formula 1 won't"

I was interviewed by a TV crew at the time but never saw the footage screened. However, my picture tribute was quoted in the national press, shown on TV and more latterly in Tom Rubython's book "The life of Senna" in which he incorrectly stated that Williams released the quote as a press release.

Nice that you have a quote etched in history, even though it got 'claimed' by the press (nothing new there!) As long as you know it's yours is all that matters.

Just like the Williams factory, the start/finish line in Adelaide was completely covered in flowers & messages....some were truly heart wrenching.
This was the last GP finish line Ayrton crossed & coupled with his pole position & victory, it has become a sacred place for any Senna fan.

They held a memorial service there in the days after & 3000 people attended. Just shows the worldwide impact of his loss.

.

[Bononi]

Now imagine what happened in Brazil...






There were even suicides related to Senna's death.

[djb]

Originally Posted by Bononi

There were even suicides related to Senna's death.

.....really Bon? That is just sad, those poor people. Obviously not they were not stable, but still damn sad.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Now imagine what happened in Brazil...

A friend and I had a bit of a disagreement over what Senna meant to Brazil, over and above what he meant around the world.
He just called Brazilians pathetic and he was just a F1 driver etc etc

To qualify his views, he never particularly liked Senna, always a Mansell fan and took great pleasure gloating over me if 1) Ferrari were beaten or 2) Senna was beaten.

Senna's death happened less than a year after I lost my father, so I guess I was still raw emotionally. It took a few days to really come to terms with his death, and I'm certain all people who mourned his passing had different reasons for mourning/ celebrating his life.

We would have heated arguments about Senna and how "ridiculous" his funeral was etc. My reply was he would never experience anything in the UK which would compare because here we don't exist in abject poverty and look to an individual who gives us pride to be a nation.
Senna was a hero to millions of Brazilians because he gave them belief.
We were fans because he was incredible on a track.

Then, 31st August 1997, Diana was killed. I won't go into conspiracy theories, but anyway, the UK went berserk for a "Royal". I am not a royalist in any sense, but next time my friend and I spoke, he'd been to Kensington Palace to lay flowers. He spoke of what the Royal family gave to this country and the pride around the world, flag waving.
The irony being he'd never once met a member of the firm, yet been attending races for years.

I wasn't going to argue but merely said, " Now you understand a little of what Senna meant " Never did get a comeback on that one

[chunder]

To be perfectly honest mate, the sheer fact that you went to lay flowers says a lot.

Some people can pull away from emotive things, but the fact you felt you had to go along and do that suggest an emotional need to do so. I ahve never understood why people do these kind of things, I guess it's a part of dealing with emotions that is missing from me.

When you see people doing it on the tv at murder scenes and the like it sort of doesn't fit well with me, unless you knoew this person, why?

Anyway, I was very taken aback by his death, had been out watching racing diring that day, and simply didnt believe my Mum when she told me, I had to watch it all presuming she had made a mistake.

The same with Diana, was very moving watching it all, but rather unbelievable!

[djb]

Originally Posted by chunder

To be perfectly honest mate, the sheer fact that you went to lay flowers says a lot.

chunder, it was his friend who went to lay flowers for Diana, not "herowassenna".

Hero, your example of showing your friends reaction to Diana's death is a very good example of how one person can have an effect on a great number of people, in almost a mythic way.

a great way on your part to show the similarities of the reaction, and how Senna's death had an impact on Brazilians in the larger sense.


OOPs, realize you were probably referring to the other fellow, Richard B.....

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

I wish there was a memory erasing pill that lasted 24 hours (other than alcohol!) so I could watch the Movie 'for the first time'.......

Sometimes I fell I'd love to take a pill like that.

When Senna crashed, I was entering primary school but was Schumacher fan already (I loved the yellow Benetton cars prior to the Mild Seven sponsorship). So all theses years I've read quite a bit about Senna. But I didn't know most of his year-to-year facts, much less saw his relationship with Prost (or Balestre's napoleonic aura). So the film revealed to me a lot.

[herowassenna]

Thank djb. Its the only example I can think of to display what a man like Senna meant to his country.
chunder, first reading I thought the same, lol

[chunder]

I think the only real comparison you might have here is someone like Bobby Moore, and maybe George Best in Ireland.

It was strange here as the outpouring for George Best was huge, yet he largely caused his own downfall with drink and stuff, I had very little sympathy for him really. Despite the total over the top stuff from various people slightly linked to Man United.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by chunder

I think the only real comparison you might have here is someone like Bobby Moore, and maybe George Best in Ireland.

It was strange here as the outpouring for George Best was huge, yet he largely caused his own downfall with drink and stuff, I had very little sympathy for him really. Despite the total over the top stuff from various people slightly linked to Man United.

I see your point, it's just that the country didn't stop because of the death of these people. I remember Brazil had 3 days of mourning for Senna.
I can't imagine Brazil will react the same when Pele's time passes.
Best's was strange, and in the same way that Paul Gascoyne is treated like footballing royalty, not because of success but because he has self destructed. Do we psychologically prefer people that have obvious weaknesses? Is that why someone like Hamilton is more interesting because he has frailites as opposed to someone who wins consumately without effort.
In snooker, why are Alex Higgins and Ronnie O'Sullivan called genius, yet their winning strike rate doesn't compare to the Steve Davis, Stephen Hendry's of the world.

I remember a line from a biography of Villeneuve which stated that he was one who made you realise, no you couldn't do this. Senna, again, was another that made you realise this was other worldly skill. Seeing the TopGear tribute last year, where even in a straight line, that Lotus was squirming, gave you an understanding of just what greatness was.

Everyone on that F1 grid has a skill level beyond what any of us has access to, yet the vulnerable are the ones who are interesting. Maybe this is whats defined as charisma.
Even Alonso, who is regarded as probably the best all rounder, demonstrated weakness in the 2007 season.

[Bononi]

Brazil is a very different country now than it was in the 90s.

Brazil is a country but not a nation. A very young country with a short history. Brazil doesn't have any heroes or a cult for heroes. At that time, the 90s, the country had just left dictatorship and there were great economic problems and the poverty was everywhere. Senna represented everything a brazilian could desire for. He was honest, talented, determined, beautiful and was dating the beauty queen of the TV show. Every sunday morning, brazilians could have a piece of that universe they'd never have any other way. The brazilian national squad was 24 years without winning a world cup and the brazilians drivers were the only pride and joy. In the brazilian culture only the winner is important, second is the first of the losers, there are no place for second best. Senna almagamated all the wishes, ambitions and desires with his charisma and talent. For the first time, after 30 years of dictatorship and gentle submission they had someone who would defy and fight for them. I heard many times - more than I would like - that he could solve all the problems if he was the leader of the country. Just to measure how strong was the faith in his skills...
Now is a different time, and the new generation see things in a different way from those who lived the 70s/80s/90s in Brazil. Senna is a myth now, sung by older people as a hero, unbeatable and magical.
Since his last WDC, Brazil has been successful in many other sports and brought a new generation of sporsmen, politicians and bussinessmen that brought the country to another level. There are still huge problems, but there's economic stability, the country has become the 7th economy of the world, the poverty has been reduced and confined to less developed regions of the country and the future is bright for the generations to come.
Senna played a huge role and still does creating a model for brazilians. His legacy still inspires many to become better persons.
I believe everything has a right time to happen, and that's what happened with Senna.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

I can't imagine Brazil will react the same when Pele's time passes.

That's what happens when someone dies before retiring. I'm not sure if Brazil needs Pelé the way they needed him and Senna 20 years ago.

Originally Posted by Bononi

Now is a different time, and the new generation see things in a different way from those who lived the 70s/80s/90s in Brazil.

Since his last WDC, Brazil has been successful in many other sports and brought a new generation of sporsmen, politicians and bussinessmen that brought the country to another level. There are still huge problems, but there's economic stability, the country has become the 7th economy of the world, the poverty has been reduced and confined to less developed regions of the country and the future is bright for the generations to come.

Senna played a huge role and still does creating a model for brazilians. His legacy still inspires many to become better persons.
I believe everything has a right time to happen, and that's what happened with Senna.

Yes and no. There is much less starvation and misery, there is more prosperity. But there is exclusion - if you live in a favela, you are seen very differently as someone from a decent neighbourhood, even with the same job. There is violence - drugs are killing the lives of millions, and gangs are making the lives of the rest terrible.

Yes there are more heroes now. But there are antiheroes too. Several of Brazil's top footballers are unprofessional (like Ronaldinho).