What's happening to motorsport?

[Al Weyman]

Yes I agree they are doing something right nice friendly and helpful staff is also a massive plus.

[Peter Mallett]

I think it is relevant to note that the Baby 360 2hrs race at Brands attracted 30 entries of varying type. 29 started and 22 finished. As far as I can tell all 29 were running at the 1 hour mark. So, at least 22 happy customers from the entry (probably 29) and all done with the club racer in mind.

There are some things in motorsport that are apparently "right".

And of course on the subject of series versus championships, the FISCAR challenge is enjoying a good first season with sizeable grids. Again no points at stake just the trophies for each race.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

the FISCAR challenge

Glad the mini-360 went well.....

Had to Google the above, tho

Bit of a niche market I guess, but I'm sure its fun to be in.....I like this extract from the regs:

"Motor Sport is NOT a “CONTACT SPORT”, and contact of any kind will be dealt with in the most severe manner, with future exclusion from the Series probable"

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I think it is relevant to note that the Baby 360 2hrs race at Brands attracted 30 entries of varying type. 29 started and 22 finished. As far as I can tell all 29 were running at the 1 hour mark. So, at least 22 happy customers from the entry (probably 29) and all done with the club racer in mind.

There are some things in motorsport that are apparently "right".

And of course on the subject of series versus championships, the FISCAR challenge is enjoying a good first season with sizeable grids. Again no points at stake just the trophies for each race.

I think one thing has become apparent to me...club racers like the club feeling and (i have just said this in another post) quite a few people said to me yesterday "Dont change that clubby feel..."...one in particular, who shall remain annom....who has seen first hand what happens when you take a clubby concept and change it so much that it loses its appeal.... just to comfirm that will NOT happen with 360

As Mr Bell like s me to say...."We are not champagne and Caviar....more sausage rolls and a bottle of House Wine....but we do endurance racing......as it should be"

[Al Weyman]

Well after a lone 40 minute stint at Doningtonat the weekend I can confirm long distance racing is not for me, I don't know whether its the car or me or a bit of both but I was absolutely done in by the end of it. And yes I did finish and would have finished the 2nd race as well but miscalculated the fuel or had an electrical malady, jury still out!

[dtype38]

Have to agree with Al on that one

In fact, I can't think of anything (in motor racing) more mind-numbingly boring that 2 hours round Brands Hatch. In fact, anything over 1/2 hour and I start thinking about how much fuel I'm using, and how much rubber I'm wearing off my tyres, and if there's any beer in the tow car... Gimme a pair of 15 - 20 min sprints any day!

Just goes to show, it takes all sorts.

[Al Weyman]

Absolutely, in fact a nice lady marshal even came over to me as I was sitting in the car exhausted and not getting out and was concerned I was OK. Have that on video as well lol! In fairness if it was a less demanding car I would have probably been OK but you blink with these things and you are off the circuit, even Bernie came over to me and said he was shattered after just a 20 minute stint. They also get so hot in the cockpit.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Have to agree with Al on that one

In fact, I can't think of anything (in motor racing) more mind-numbingly boring that 2 hours round Brands Hatch. In fact, anything over 1/2 hour and I start thinking about how much fuel I'm using, and how much rubber I'm wearing off my tyres, and if there's any beer in the tow car... Gimme a pair of 15 - 20 min sprints any day!

Just goes to show, it takes all sorts.

For me it was just MIND BLOWING! But as you say horses for courses and different strokes etc

[Peter Mallett]

Trying to keep this on topic, I question what the length of a race has to do with the state of motorsport? Surely it's more about the availability of races, the consistency of calendars and regs etc? Personal likes about race length don't, IMO come into the equation. And even if they did, nobody's making anyone race for longer than 15mins, it's entirely up to the individual.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Trying to keep this on topic, I question what the length of a race has to do with the state of motorsport? Surely it's more about the availability of races, the consistency of calendars and regs etc? Personal likes about race length don't, IMO come into the equation. And even if they did, nobody's making anyone race for longer than 15mins, it's entirely up to the individual.

Agreed

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I question what the length of a race has to do with the state of motorsport? Surely it's more about the availability of races, the consistency of calendars and regs etc? Personal likes about race length don't, IMO come into the equation. And even if they did, nobody's making anyone race for longer than 15mins, it's entirely up to the individual.

You're right Peter except that the amount of track time, per £, makes sprint races appear to be expensive and has thus fuelled the debate about cost and not everybody seems to accept or understand the reverse economy of scale.
Where there is an impact on entry fees is the 'double bubble' effect where a race promoter, who is is not an organising club, takes the commercial risk of filling a grid (and presumably making a profit!) but then has to go through said organising club for the permit and race day organisation, who then put their 'mark up' or overhead recovery on top.
..... but has already said by others, market forces will rule

[Peter Mallett]

I agree there is the £/lap discussion but that goes with the preferences. If we are counting the cost of entry fees then we are looking in the wrong direction. You want cheap? Go do something else.

[Al Weyman]

Looking at some of the previous posts and seeing the evidence for myself it appears many people are doing just that but remember without cannon fodder there will be no battle and no heros (or winners in this case).

[Peter Mallett]

No you've lost me there. You have just competed at a well subscribed meeting. I have been to a number of them this season so far. Next weekend I will be (barring accidents) attending another well subscribed meeting.

HSCC, FISCAR, HRDC, CSCC, MGCC, all appear to be doing the right thing, which is running club races for clubmen. I therefore suggest it is not the race lengths but the format that may be right. So, what are they doing that others aren't? Can't be cost because they mostly run at the over £250 per race mark.

[Al Weyman]

On the face of it yes it was well subscribed but scratch the surface and you will see even here there were problems. For example the V8's were first in with the German cars for the 40 minute race as neither could muster a full grid then in with the very poor showing from the Specials for the 20 minute race on Sunday. The races that seem to be over subscribed are the ones that yet again are cheaper to prepare cars for, i.e. Tin Tops and I believe Future Classics I don't believe this is by coincidence. This is probably why CTCRC are trying to do a post 93 pre 2004 2 litre formula because just maybe there is a need for such a thing with more strict rules than those that are applied to TinTops as I have heard some guys complain about the freedom which will often (not always) = £££'s. Not sure if it will work or not, we will have to see. Incidently to guys who were campaigning to get Special Saloons back out, I think you need to make the effort to enter or it will fall flat on its face don't risk loosing it now CSCC have accomadated it. Just an observation from the sidelines.

[Peter Mallett]

I agree, all in the garden is not rosy, but you have just nailed one of my points. If you are going to run a championship for highly regulated cars, don't keep dicking with the regs. Equally trying to run a single category race, whether it be V8 or special saloons will inevitably lead to falling grids as the core element will suffer reliability or accident issues.

So I still say it's format rather than race lengths which are the main drivers to success. You mention this new initiative from the CTCRC, which seems to take in the German marque cars, the future classics, ex btcc cars etc. who already have somewhere to race. So, what is the CTCRC going to offer these drivers that is different to what they get now? Shorter races? Better venues? Bigger meetings? Or simply a barby in the paddock?

[Al Weyman]

No they wont take any of those on because they are for more stock, less modified 2 litre front wheel drives. Let me say again I am not an advocate of this type of racing but can see there may be a need, how again it will be policed is of course another matter. On the changing of rules in the Post Historics/Group 1, I must say I have seen no more cars out, far less in fact and on balance I think it may have been a mistake.

[Peter Mallett]

So what cars are you trying to attract? If they are already prepared, they will already be racing somewhere. If they aren't already prepared, where do you think they will come from?

If the former, then all you are doing is depleting another grid and raising the costs for all concerned. Rather like insurance the losses get spread around the entire market place. If the latter then you need to offer an incentive, and if requirements are as diverse as they appear, then it needs to be really sexy.

[Al Weyman]

Again I am am not trying to attract any cars its nothing to do with me I am not even on the committee I know as much as anyone else and whats been published here and in Autosport. I can only assume from what I have read they are trying to attract stuff like ex-Prod Saloons and Saxo Max was mentioned wasn't it whatever that is. I get the impression its for guys who want a more basic championship/series than even Hot Hatch and definitely more basic than Tin Tops but if you need to know anymore you need to ask them. Unfortunately as I have posted on the club's forums what worries me is that one type of car no doubt will become the one to have as the one blessed with all the right attributes.

[Peter Mallett]

Sorry was using "you" instead of "the club". However my point remains. If the cars are out there they already have something to race in and if they want different then the drivers should speak to their own club/clubs. All that appears to be happening is that someone is offering the same thing but with a different name, which will just result in a dilution of the available grids. Ergo a typical example of one of the problems in motorsport.

[Al Weyman]

I guess the consensus in the club is that others have done the same to their championships and until such time as something is put in by the MSA or FIA to stop this which we are told would be illegal through EEC anti-competition laws although I really cannot see that but am no legal expert then its every man (or club) for themselves.

[Peter Mallett]

Oh dear. So rather than accept responsibility for our actions we must wait to be told we are wrong by the authorities? That is I am afraid, exactly why we have problems.

[Al Weyman]

Well i could put it another way, who is going to back down first? Other clubs have been doing it for years as we have discussed. Why should it be any particular club that will fall on their sword. The governing bodies make it a competitive thing by not putting rules into place to stop it.

[MartinSmith]

This has gone full circle again (and again)

You have no right the same as the MSA have no right to tell a club what to do, if that was the case, someone should have stopped TESCO long ago. You cannot keep blamimg everyone else ands not take some responsability. You as a club should take a stand, or you as a member should take a stand and as I said 15 pages back, its no good saying "I can't do it on my own" that's rubbish as well, if enough of all of you feel the same you will not be alone, its pie and pint stuff.

I think club racers are out there for the right event and the right price stuff if its 20 mins or 20 hours, they will come if the price is right and the event is too.

I keep saying this but you CANNOT have it both ways and you need to understand that as Customers. Work out what's important to you and in truth, its easier if yiu start with What you LIKE rather than the negative of what you DON'T LIKE, then you can work towards a goal rather than trying to work away from an unwanted situation

[Al Weyman]

I realise all that Claire I am not stutid (don't answer that lol). My response is in that the CTCRC has the same right to promote their new series as all the others have.