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Old 5 Dec 2018, 23:36 (Ref:3868166)   #6101
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Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles View Post
Is that unexpected? Manufacturers at the moment want cheap. You can discuss the way in which these regulations try to be cheap but there is no way these were in any way going to be innovative or bleeding edge. Active aero is the most innovative thing about it I reckon.
If they want cheap they should just make DPi the top class at LeMans. I didn't like DPi at first but compared to these new rules DPi looks like gold.
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Old 5 Dec 2018, 23:46 (Ref:3868167)   #6102
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The only point of salvation might be the IMSA, but they are avoiding the bullet for now.

And might step into the path of their own bullet if they aren't ready to revamp DPi in a few more years.


Even if one doesn't agree with my assessment of DPi as a stopgap, there's little doubt that DPi will last forever, either. Sportscar racing is very cyclical and DPi won't last forever without adapting to the changes.


That aside, I'd like to see a serious analysis of how much cheaper the cars would be if you dumped the hybrids. Even if they're not cheap enough to run in IMSA as a result, if the hybrid makes a big enough difference in cost then IMSA could revamp DPi in a way that could make it perfectly reasonable to go up to the ACO and say, "Hey, how about you let our guys race at Le Mans with these if they agree to throw on the required hybrid system?"


In the end, we can speculate all we want, but we don't actually know if the manufacturers are by and large happy with the rules.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 00:11 (Ref:3868171)   #6103
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If they want cheap they should just make DPi the top class at LeMans.
That would be silly of course. There is a tradeoff between being cheap and being interesting.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 00:38 (Ref:3868176)   #6104
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It's like choosing between watching paint dry or grass grow from where I'm sitting anyways.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 01:15 (Ref:3868178)   #6105
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At least the grass is going to get green at some point while the paint will stay stale
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 01:24 (Ref:3868179)   #6106
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This is a good one, and the faces sum up my feelings:



(https://assets.lemans.org/explorer/p...tions-2020.pdf)

(Those are actually links to Youtube videos. Typical ACO-English.)
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 01:27 (Ref:3868180)   #6107
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The technical regulations have the provision for 50kg, but the sporting regulations that would specify that being used for ballast don't exist yet. It's stated in the presentation though (although there's some small differences in details there, the slide says 520kW while the regulations say 508kW)

Pretty sad state when you regulate the cars to be practically identical but still decide to success ballast it anyways. Really is a laughably overpriced version of DTM.
Indeed. I didn't check the full regs yet but this is the slide from the presentation:

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Old 6 Dec 2018, 01:33 (Ref:3868181)   #6108
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And how was this not mentioned? Only one tire manufacturer and 3 specs of slicks and 2 wets allowed. Or did I miss this earlier, and was a tender offered for this supply yet?

Page 12 of the slides posted on the DSC/ACO regs link.
This was already in the earlier leaked/released slides (http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/1...up-a-gear.html). The tender will be out soon I guess then and surely will be eventually handed over to Michelin.

Last edited by deggis; 6 Dec 2018 at 01:42.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 01:55 (Ref:3868183)   #6109
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One big disappointment for me is that apparently the active aero elements can only be activated by the driver. That's kind of boring
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 02:18 (Ref:3868185)   #6110
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I'm 50/50 on these new rules. There's lots of things I like; wide and long cars, hypercar look, more engine power, free engine choice etc. But things I really dislike; 'super heavy' cars, mandated engine weight, hybrid weight, engine power, hybrid power, mandated downforce and aero levels etc.

There seems to be some confusion over if privateers have to produce road cars or not. I can't tell if they can make or purchase a non-manufacturer engine. It seems like AER, Cosworth, JUDD etc is out of it if they have to use an engine that is produced in a set amount. Unless that only applies to manufacturers I don't see this being a good thing. I really hope there's wiggle room in the rules to stimulate some development and we don't have something like DTM as someone mentioned above. This does sound like upgraded Super GT GT500 class though and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

If it were something like mid-2000's GT500 with open engines mixed with late 90's GT1 with actual freedom to make more power through fuel flow like currently used in lmp1, I think I would favor this change a lot more. So what's the truth? Is it manufacturer/road engines upgraded for everyone or just manufacturers? Is it homologation specials or not? Lots of conflicting info coming out.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 02:20 (Ref:3868186)   #6111
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Here's the rule:
"3.6 Movable aerodynamic device - MAD
A MAD is a bodywork element which incidence can vary whilst the car is in motion.
A MAD device formed by two parts symmetrical by the car centreline will be considered as a single device; their positions
must remain symmetrical at all time.
A front and a rear MAD are permitted, provided that:..."

To me, that says that the device is symmetrical about the centreline in the same way that the current front wings are. So at the front of the car, the bit between the front right wheel and the centeline is half of the device and the bit on the other side of the centreline is the other half.
And there can be one device at each end of the car.
You're right about the operation of it.
There's nothing that says they must be connected on either side, in fact it says two symmetrical pieces on either side would be considered one. To me that means they could have 2 sections at the rear that move at the same time without being connected on the exterior of the car. Not sure there would be an advantage at the rear of the car but possibly used to open and close at flow through the chassis at the front on either side of the nose?
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 10:03 (Ref:3868226)   #6112
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helgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Manufacturers are so scared of direct competition nowadays. But who will BoP their street cars?
I think I've saw a link to 750 Formula races live video. I would prefer it on the same weekend as FIA WEC.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 12:20 (Ref:3868246)   #6113
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There seems to be some confusion over if privateers have to produce road cars or not.
I'm totally confused regarding privateer entries. I assumed they would simply buy the full package (car/engine/ERS) from their chosen manufacturer and go racing, but I get the feeling I'm wrong.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 13:14 (Ref:3868259)   #6114
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I think the only homologated thing from a road car is the engine and ERS. A privateer could buy that kit in a Onroak, Oreca, Dallara, etc chassis. The problem is going to be designed compatibility with multiple options, if multiple options appear.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 14:14 (Ref:3868271)   #6115
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So they will have success ballast for every event except for Le Mans? In GTE the said ballast would be okay (if there also wasn't round-by-round BoP, which there is) because at least it's transparent unlike random political tinkering, however in top class it's just laughable. On top of that you have the DPi 2.0 branding incentives, spec components and parts, tech freeze and cost cap. Might as well snooze off before the zero emission rules are established because these junk regulations truly are signs of desperation.

So the way of the future is
WEC - 1 "tech" BoP class, 2 BoP classes, 1 spec class
IMSA - 3 BoP classes, 1 spec class
ELMS - 2 spec classes, 1 BoP class
ASLMS - 2 spec classes, 1-2 BoP classes
MLMC - 1 spec class, 1 BoP class (+ 1 G56 if accepted???)
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 14:15 (Ref:3868274)   #6116
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I dont understand why the hybrid is such a big deal to the regulations in top level racing. If it's open development great, I love it. If you're going to freeze development and essentially put on a show make the show good. Give us screaming NA engines with big power and call it good.

I understand its marketing, but we all see through that and does the general car buying public care about a manufacturers racing success?
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 14:39 (Ref:3868283)   #6117
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I dont understand why the hybrid is such a big deal to the regulations in top level racing. If it's open development great, I love it. If you're going to freeze development and essentially put on a show make the show good. Give us screaming NA engines with big power and call it good.

I understand its marketing, but we all see through that and does the general car buying public care about a manufacturers racing success?
I was about to say that they need it purely so that they can mention word 'hybrid' in OEM PR press releases, but then I realized they could just call them 'hybrids' without there being any hybrid components. It's not like honesty matters anymore, see case Alpine for example.

In the end it's probably there to just please off Toyota and keep them on board
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 14:43 (Ref:3868284)   #6118
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There's been a clarification issued over the engine regs (which were confusing me) - teams can still use a pure motorsport engine & hybrid system if they want. From this article:

Quote:
The engine can be production-based or it can be a pure race engine," he told Motorsport.com. "If you start with a production engine there are less restrictions, such as the use of variable camshaft timing as long as it is used on the road car.
"It is the same with the hybrid system: you are allowed just one electric motor but you can have two if it is developed from a road system.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 15:04 (Ref:3868288)   #6119
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I think the only homologated thing from a road car is the engine and ERS. A privateer could buy that kit in a Onroak, Oreca, Dallara, etc chassis. The problem is going to be designed compatibility with multiple options, if multiple options appear.
I don't know, you may well be right, but I've been unable to find any contingency in the regulations for the likes of Onroak, Oreca or Dallara which makes them exempt from having to build the same number of cars homologated for road use as the likes of Toyota, Aston Martin or McLaren.

There are plenty of references to 'customers' flying about, but nothing which explains how, in simple terms, a privateer team avails itself of a Series legal hypercar to go racing with, unless they buy the full package from one of the OEM's.

Maybe I'm missing something...
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 15:13 (Ref:3868291)   #6120
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See the clarification above. Like I originally thought, it means any entry can either use a production engine or a bespoke one. Same for ERS. And the rules only specify that if an entry want to use a production engine or ERS, those numbers need to be met. And there was never anything about cars, only engines and ERS.

If a privateer wants to race all they have to do is build a car to the regulations. That's it. Then if they want to use a road car engine, the manufacturer of that engine needs to meet those production numbers.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 15:13 (Ref:3868292)   #6121
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I'm still praying for this line of text to appear: "Alongside the LMGTP and LMP2 classes, LMP1 class shall be retained for cars corresponding to the 2018 Non-Hybrid technical regulations. Homologations will be extended until the conclusion of 2023-2024 season"

That way we could still have some fun in these "gap years" before zero emission... and not all gloom and misery
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 15:26 (Ref:3868295)   #6122
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Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles View Post
See the clarification above. Like I originally thought, it means any entry can either use a production engine or a bespoke one. Same for ERS. And the rules only specify that if an entry want to use a production engine or ERS, those numbers need to be met. And there was never anything about cars, only engines and ERS.

If a privateer wants to race all they have to do is build a car to the regulations. That's it. Then if they want to use a road car engine, the manufacturer of that engine needs to meet those production numbers.
Perfect, thank you!
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 15:27 (Ref:3868296)   #6123
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I don't blame you for being confused though, I had to read those sections at least 3 times to get an idea! It's good that they came out and clarified a few things.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 15:47 (Ref:3868300)   #6124
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I don't blame you for being confused though, I had to read those sections at least 3 times to get an idea! It's good that they came out and clarified a few things.
Me, I'm easily confused, especially when faced with 106 pages of technical regulations. I do think this was important though, there should have been clarification in the 'explainer' they published yesterday.

Anyway, now wondering if Rebellion will turn to Toyota to power their Oreca built hypercar...
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 19:41 (Ref:3868365)   #6125
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I have been trying to understand what they mean when they say "two motors" for the ers. Don't they say torque vectoring is banned? Think about it, if you use a 'production' based ers you can have two electric motors. But the rules also say that the front axel is the only place to have electric drive. Why would you want to use two motors unless you plan to drive each front wheel separately? In turn, that would be a form of torque vectoring but it would be controlled by each motor in the front. My guess would be an in-wheel motor for the front two wheels. That might circumvent the "no torque vectoring" rule. Admittedly I haven't read it yet so I could be wrong.
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