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Old 26 Jan 2020, 03:18 (Ref:3953635)   #7351
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Apparently LMH is not yet decided to be eligible for IMSA which makes this a bit of a joke.
Confirmed by Doonan on the RLM feed just now - they are 'looking at it' but right now, it is a one way door for IMSA cars to join WEC/Le Mans


So why build a WEC spec car and get shut out of Daytona/Sebring/PLM instead of grab an LMP2, stick some bodywork on it & shove an engine in the back then have all options open?
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 14:20 (Ref:3953761)   #7352
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Confirmed by Doonan on the RLM feed just now - they are 'looking at it' but right now, it is a one way door for IMSA cars to join WEC/Le Mans


So why build a WEC spec car and get shut out of Daytona/Sebring/PLM instead of grab an LMP2, stick some bodywork on it & shove an engine in the back then have all options open?
Depends on the brand, I guess. Can you imagine Audi electing to build a glorified P2 over winning with their own technology? On the flip side, smaller manufacturers with stingier boards are now more likely to come and play.

On another note. I have to say, when I saw the news, I was really excited. The tone of this thread has taken me by surprise.
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 14:25 (Ref:3953766)   #7353
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Depends on the brand, I guess. Can you imagine Audi electing to build a glorified P2 over winning with their own technology? On the flip side, smaller manufacturers with stingier boards are now more likely to come and play.

On another note. I have to say, when I saw the news, I was really excited. The tone of this thread has taken me by surprise.
Isn't that what Audi are doing with Formula E? Until recently it was just a spec series. Now it's a spec chassis, with custom battery and drive train.

LMDh would be similar. Spec chassis, custom engine, potentially spec hybrid.

In saying that, I imagine it'd be cheaper to open LMDh to open chassis and more open hybrid, than it would be to build a Hypercar.
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 16:32 (Ref:3953820)   #7354
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Isn't that what Audi are doing with Formula E? Until recently it was just a spec series. Now it's a spec chassis, with custom battery and drive train.

LMDh would be similar. Spec chassis, custom engine, potentially spec hybrid.

In saying that, I imagine it'd be cheaper to open LMDh to open chassis and more open hybrid, than it would be to build a Hypercar.
How would it be cheaper? I guess if it's an outside constructor for the chassis like Dallara did before for Audi that's based on the p2 it'd be cheaper. But if it's a custom one then it's not saving money imo. There's still the electronics, the ecu, the suspension etc that is all changed regardless if its a dpi or a hypercar. The only thing I see that makes it cheaper to do lmdh taking a pre-made chassis from a p2 and doing what they are now. Hypercar shouldn't be too much more but with everything custom done there is always more cost.

I think this undercuts hypercar and the whole regulations. 9/10 will go the cheaper route unless they want to innovate like a Toyota or sell their hypercar like a Glickenhaus.
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 17:09 (Ref:3953834)   #7355
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No way that BOP will equalize hypercars and cheaper spec cars at LeMans. Maybe it will be equal at Daytona but no way it will be at Lemans.

In the end we will once again read complains, what's the point if ACO favors only Hypercars. The point is that hypercars must run like clockwork otherwise the chance is missed.
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 17:40 (Ref:3953850)   #7356
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How would it be cheaper? I guess if it's an outside constructor for the chassis like Dallara did before for Audi that's based on the p2 it'd be cheaper. But if it's a custom one then it's not saving money imo. There's still the electronics, the ecu, the suspension etc that is all changed regardless if its a dpi or a hypercar. The only thing I see that makes it cheaper to do lmdh taking a pre-made chassis from a p2 and doing what they are now. Hypercar shouldn't be too much more but with everything custom done there is always more cost.

I think this undercuts hypercar and the whole regulations. 9/10 will go the cheaper route unless they want to innovate like a Toyota or sell their hypercar like a Glickenhaus.
It's cheap because suddenly you have options. Buy an LMP2. Buy and modify an LMP2. Contract the LMP2 builder to modify it (see: ORECA and R13). Take previous work and iterate (see SMP). You won't be doing any of that with a Hypercar.

Toyota "wanting to innovate" won't last long when you spend £100m a year to get beaten by someone buying a Ligier and running for a tenth of the budget. Especially if you can run your cheap Ligier based car everywhere, but the Hypercar is still only eligable for WEC.

There is actually no advantage to Hypercar. Since this is a BoP situation, scrap Hypercar, open LMDh a little more. Job done. Also solves the stupid LMP2 lap time issue that is going to cause problems.
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 18:26 (Ref:3953875)   #7357
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Here's a wild idea.

Drop Hypercar, and extend LMDh a little, rename to LMP1. Keep LMP2 at the current speed. Now we have complete prototype convergence.

Since GTE is now a BoP class, replace GTE-Am with GT3. Rename GTD and and GTE-Am to GT3 (because that's what it is), and now we have GT convergence. Extend WEC grid to more like 40 cars. Keep the Pro-Am regulations for GT3.

Same LMP classes. Same GT classes. Places for Pros and Ams.
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 19:39 (Ref:3953903)   #7358
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Here's a wild idea.

Drop Hypercar, and extend LMDh a little, rename to LMP1. Keep LMP2 at the current speed. Now we have complete prototype convergence.

Since GTE is now a BoP class, replace GTE-Am with GT3. Rename GTD and and GTE-Am to GT3 (because that's what it is), and now we have GT convergence. Extend WEC grid to more like 40 cars. Keep the Pro-Am regulations for GT3.

Same LMP classes. Same GT classes. Places for Pros and Ams.
I was thinking about this yesterday and why do the class names have to have a race name in their titles? Is it solely ego? That is one thing hypercar has going for it, no place names!
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 19:47 (Ref:3953906)   #7359
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Ah man, just realised that basing LMDh on LMP2 chassis means keeping those damn fins.
DSC says that the intention is that the new cars will feature much more extensive road car styling cues – rather oddly not far short of what ‘Hypercar’ was intended to produce!
The days of DPis looking very similar to their LMP2 brethren are numbered.
So maybe they look more like the old Corvette DP and have no fin.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...nvergence.html
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 19:54 (Ref:3953907)   #7360
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I was thinking about this yesterday and why do the class names have to have a race name in their titles? Is it solely ego? That is one thing hypercar has going for it, no place names!
Absolutely ego. ACO previously called GT3, GTC. Because GT3 is SRO and we can't have that. Forget that Ratel saved their ass in the 90s.

Meanwhile IMSA calls modified LMP2s Daytona Prototypes, which they are not. It calls GT3s, GTDs, as if they somehow have any link to Daytona.

That's why LMDh is a relatively nice name - it has both. Which is nice - ACO provides the base that IMSA builds on. It should be the name going forward, or we just go to P1, P2, GT1 and GT2. Drop the LM name from them. Global platforms should have global names.

Renaming GT3 to GT2 (should it run at Le Mans) would be less insulting since it's clearly done for a logical reason, rather than pretending they have some sort of ownership as they've done in the past.
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 21:55 (Ref:3953921)   #7361
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Wouldn't be surprised if what comes by Sebring is...

Hypercars is kept as a separate class, LMP1 & DPi are the actual 'convergence', with the engine regs being the change point. Present Maximums being 5.5L NA for ACO/WEC, and 6.2L NA for IMSA. 5.9/6.0L being the eventual meeting point. Hybrid units will be for the 3.6L turbo engines, so as to make them more able to keep up with the NA engines.

The Toyota question is easily solved, as the possible Lexus LMDh will be handled by TRD in Torrance, California. The Hypercar will maintained by Toyota's people in europe, as most of it's racing (outside of Daytona, Sebring, and Petit Le Mans) will be done there.

Just my opinions, but don't be surprised if things shake out close to this...
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 00:19 (Ref:3953933)   #7362
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There is dozens of different versions of "GT1" or "GT2" in different racing organizations around the world, there's really nothing wrong with "LM GT1" or whatever to refer to the one used at Le Mans. Off hand I couldn't think of one major championship running FIA GT3 that actually has a named "GT3" class. In the SRO championships they're only named by driver categories and then you have GT/GTD/GTC/GT300/SP7/ST-X/APP etc. GT Asia is the exception.

Toyota rolling up with a GR Super Sport to race glorified P2s is not horrendously different than the R10 burning stacks of cash to grid up against P2 Courage-Hondas. It's far from ideal but there's no pressing reason to get rid of it as long as the cheapo category is so restrictive on manufacturer relevant technology. It's not like GTLM makes much sense on a budget vs. results scale either but it's much more meaningful to race a Corvette than a Corvette DP.

LMDh is a horrible name because it's literally just cramming everyone's name in there so they feel important without any concern for what it means or how stupid it looks or sounds.
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 09:22 (Ref:3953970)   #7363
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There are different types of GT over the world. I just wonder if this version can do it. Certainly some GT categories are better than others. I think the SRO version has been good while it's lasted, and it's done well in different parts of the world.

Certainly it will be interesting to see the Toyota out on track. We've had Le Mans that have been a bit short on competition in the past. We'll see what happens, maybe there will be enough interest. I'm sure Le Mans will continue to be great, although it is question of what cars will remain with the changes coming up

Really we'll see what happens when it comes to, because what matters is what is on track
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 17:28 (Ref:3954069)   #7364
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It's cheap because suddenly you have options. Buy an LMP2. Buy and modify an LMP2. Contract the LMP2 builder to modify it (see: ORECA and R13). Take previous work and iterate (see SMP). You won't be doing any of that with a Hypercar.

Toyota "wanting to innovate" won't last long when you spend £100m a year to get beaten by someone buying a Ligier and running for a tenth of the budget. Especially if you can run your cheap Ligier based car everywhere, but the Hypercar is still only eligable for WEC.

There is actually no advantage to Hypercar. Since this is a BoP situation, scrap Hypercar, open LMDh a little more. Job done. Also solves the stupid LMP2 lap time issue that is going to cause problems.
Well, not sure if you're just throwing out a random number, but Toyota isn't going to spend 100 million a year on anything unless they go back to F1. But sure, they're going to spend more than the others. Probably solely on the fact they're developing their own car, engine, hybrid etc. I'm wondering if they're going to voice their displeasure after a while (or maybe earlier) because they made an investment and now the series is promoting 'less technical' cars that aren't as sophisticated or as much of an effort.

The timing seems like a slap in the face to Toyota and Aston Martin or anyone else that wants to run a hypercar. Make an investment and then the next year's Le Mans your investment looks like an unneeded expenditure of money because this next thing is based on the 'cheap' lmp2's of the future.
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 18:51 (Ref:3954082)   #7365
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The timing seems like a slap in the face to Toyota and Aston Martin or anyone else that wants to run a hypercar. Make an investment and then the next year's Le Mans your investment looks like an unneeded expenditure of money because this next thing is based on the 'cheap' lmp2's of the future.
Well. To be blunt, now they know how the privateers feel. Many teams made investments that for their size should be considered massive, and were thrown aside and neglected whilst the ACO went after the manufacturers.

ACO treats the teams pretty poorly. The manufacturers can now join that party.
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 19:16 (Ref:3954090)   #7366
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Well, not sure if you're just throwing out a random number, but Toyota isn't going to spend 100 million a year on anything unless they go back to F1. But sure, they're going to spend more than the others. Probably solely on the fact they're developing their own car, engine, hybrid etc. I'm wondering if they're going to voice their displeasure after a while (or maybe earlier) because they made an investment and now the series is promoting 'less technical' cars that aren't as sophisticated or as much of an effort.

The timing seems like a slap in the face to Toyota and Aston Martin or anyone else that wants to run a hypercar. Make an investment and then the next year's Le Mans your investment looks like an unneeded expenditure of money because this next thing is based on the 'cheap' lmp2's of the future.
Sportscar365 understands that the program budget of Toyota’s Hypercar is in the $50 million range.
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 19:19 (Ref:3954091)   #7367
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And that's without competition.
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 22:56 (Ref:3954118)   #7368
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The Toyota question is easily solved, as the possible Lexus LMDh will be handled by TRD in Torrance, California. The Hypercar will maintained by Toyota's people in europe, as most of it's racing (outside of Daytona, Sebring, and Petit Le Mans) will be done there.
Sorry for the off-topic here but if Toyota America will handle LMDh program while Toyota Europe will handle the Hypercar one, what about the motorsports division in Japan? Are they gonna handle domestic programs?

By the way, does the Hypercar class has a budget cap right? Toyota and Aston Martin can't spend more to beat themselves in a class that might not have any entrants.
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Old 28 Jan 2020, 01:51 (Ref:3954128)   #7369
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Sorry for the off-topic here but if Toyota America will handle LMDh program while Toyota Europe will handle the Hypercar one, what about the motorsports division in Japan? Are they gonna handle domestic programs?

By the way, does the Hypercar class has a budget cap right? Toyota and Aston Martin can't spend more to beat themselves in a class that might not have any entrants.
Toyota Japanese Motorsports division designed and built the engine and hybrid system. Higashi-Fuji Technical Center is a Toyota research and development facility in Susono, Shizuoka, please give the Japanese engineers little respect.
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Old 28 Jan 2020, 04:50 (Ref:3954139)   #7370
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Well. To be blunt, now they know how the privateers feel. Many teams made investments that for their size should be considered massive, and were thrown aside and neglected whilst the ACO went after the manufacturers.

ACO treats the teams pretty poorly. The manufacturers can now join that party.
I think that's funny and false. ACO gave those guys super amounts of breaks in the rules for them to be as fast or faster than Toyota. How did they treat them poorly?

I'm saying it's a little bit late to say 'oh yeah, you can run a cheap lmp2 based car now, you don't need a hypercar', after the fact that they just made it in the rules you have to run a hypercar The funniest thing about this is that right now Rebellion is running a lmp1 based on an lmp2 chassis. So why the big rule change?
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Old 28 Jan 2020, 05:33 (Ref:3954140)   #7371
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ACO panicked and gave them breaks because the series was literally about to die. Had they not neglected them in the first places then they wouldn’t have needed to try and prop up the class.

You assumed I was referring to LMP1. I wasn’t. I was referring the the many teams who supported the ACO and then lost entries when bigger teams came along. For example, JMW making a massive commitment to ACO racing, only to be denied an entry so Ford could get 4. A team that would eventually leave, this requiring the smaller teams like JMW and Unites Autosports to step in and fill the gap.

The ACOs treatment of the smaller teams has been poor. Now it’s the manufacturers suffering as the ACO changes stance on things at breakneck speed in an attempt to fix the mess it has created.
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Old 28 Jan 2020, 12:26 (Ref:3954176)   #7372
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Performance wise ACO owned the privateers absolutely nothing as it was a true tech class (until very recently). They weren't promised anything concrete in the regulations. So best-of-the-rest Lola B12/60 Toyota being 10 seconds off the pace or whatever was something they really did not need to fix, and the entries would have been participating there regardless. But yes in terms of accepted entries (into LM24), yes it was always convoluted and short sighted.

Now, in the insane world of BoP they are technically required to boost the chances of ByKolles as high of those of 50 million Toyota or 5 million Dallara-Cadillac-P2-DPi-things. But obviously they won't actually do that, as the political motivators of OEM cash will influence the bop tables accordingly. To keep them onboard however, non-OEMs will later get the chance to win some of the lesser races.

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Old 28 Jan 2020, 18:35 (Ref:3954256)   #7373
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With all the talk about LMDh etc I hope some attention is paid to getting LMP2 right. Talk is of 10 years of rules stability. Hopefully that does not mean 10 years of one dominant chassis. But does that mean LMP2 BoP as well?



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Old 29 Jan 2020, 17:33 (Ref:3954444)   #7374
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helgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Like Dallara is everywhere in Formulae (that's why I do not care about that type of racing), it's going to be Oreca as a synonym of "prototype". I do not understand the reasons for authorities to keep pushing all the standardisation ideas, while it's clear to see that they do not help to cut the prices. GP2 (or how it's called) is not cheaper than F3000. The same goes to GP3. Well, I was told that monopolisation is a bad thing and it leads to worse "product" quality. The situation with Formulae racing is a good example. And they are going to do this with prototypes. There's no need in Нурегсагs if you can take one of 4 mandatory chassis put some clowns' moustaches and name it as your own car. And I blame journalists too, as they are not brave enough to ask unpleasant questions to the authorities. That's why I listen to some racing radio and live coverage almost 90% less than I used to do in 2010-2015. They just have no alternative ideas. It's frustrating and feels like wasting your life for some others' wallet, doing nothing to bring new ideas or alternative way to keep supporting the sport you've once liked so much.
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ACO-Ratel-Lotti group of "entertainpreneurs" soon will make you think that Reverse-Gear-Racing is the most professional series in the world. "Faccio il pane con la farina che ho".
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Old 29 Jan 2020, 17:55 (Ref:3954447)   #7375
Akrapovic
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Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!
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Originally Posted by Mike E View Post
With all the talk about LMDh etc I hope some attention is paid to getting LMP2 right. Talk is of 10 years of rules stability. Hopefully that does not mean 10 years of one dominant chassis. But does that mean LMP2 BoP as well?



https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...upgradability/
LMP2 will be BoP'd when the next generation is not equal.
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