[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[porman]

The Audi developments sound very interesting. I'm going to have to look into this.

Thanks!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Even if Audi pulls out of the LMP1 class after 2013, their legacy may be left behind in the electric hybrid bits on the Porsche LMP1

The whole point is that Audi and Porsche will compete against each other. So why would Audi give their future competitor access to its hybrid technology

[chernaudi]

Volkswagen Group owns both Audi and Porsche, and VAG ultimately had to sign off on the Porsche deal.

If Audi won't be racing in LMP1 beyond 2013 (which we don't know if they will or not, or even if the Porsche deal will even see the light of day like their LMP900 car that never turned a wheel in anger), I do believe that VAG will con Audi into sharing they hybrid technology with Porsche, especially if Porsche tries to develop and independant system that doesn't work.

As Marshall Pruett said on Wind Tunnel, this is real cloak and dagger stuff. Just because these guys say something publically, doesn't mean that it's the whole truth. Audi never publically comitted to a hybrid system until now apparently, but clearly had been working on such a system for a while, to mark one example.

And for Porsche to announce their proposal 2.5 years in advance of it's intended LM debut means that they've been working on it for a while, too, or it's simply a letter of intent--Jag in the Audi R18 thread even said that it may've been something to keep the fire lit under Audi to keep pressuing Peugeot.

[AGD]

Tokai University said they were interested in bringing a car using a waste gas hybrid (or whatever) Courage later on this year if I remember correctly. It'll be interesting. All the different kinds of potential hybrid systems is interesting, we'll have to see what actually hits the track over the next few years.

[JAG]

Until you see something with your own eyes, everythings speculation.

That being said, the jist of the article is...........

Audi were effectively on trial at Le Mans, they had to be on the pace of Peugeot, or their sportscar program would end after the R18.

Having past the test, the VW/VAG board gave the backing for Audi and Porsche to compete against each other in 2014, and beyond.

They will use different technologies, Audi diesel, Porsche petrol. Porsche are expected to use a version of the flywheel, Audi are not keen on hybrids, but will use it if there is a perfromance gain.

Porsche's decision was made some time back, before the WEC was announced.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by JAG

Audi were effectively on trial at Le Mans, they had to be on the pace of Peugeot, or their sportscar program would end after the R18.

Having past the test, the VW/VAG board gave the backing for Audi and Porsche to compete against each other in 2014, and beyond.

Makes they're victory all the more sweeter. Now we can begin to barely understand the pressure Audi is under to perform...Clutch driving by Fassler,Lotterer,and Treluyer...Two crashes at Lemans was like getting they're hearts ripped out twice. I think The win for Audi means more to them than we will ever understand.

[chernaudi]

It's been discussed in the Sportscar/GT/LM rumors thread, but on Wind Tunnel last night, Roger Penske has admitted that he's "interested" in the Porsche LMP1 program.

He didn't go into great detail, but he's kept in contact with Porsche Motorsports and the overall head of Volkswagen Motorsports, and he says that if things work out, he'd like to join up with Porsche to run at Le Mans as their leading tender.

He also said that he'd like to have Timo Bernhard, Romain Dumas, and Mike Rockenfeller as drivers.

If the Porsche program comes off (which we won't know for sure until 2014, as Porsche once built a car and never raced it, and that's just one occasion we know of there on that account), and he is owner of the Porsche factory team, Roger will likely get Timo and Romain, who are Porsche factory drivers who have "loan"/"hired gun" contracts with Audi. But it's doubtful he'll get Rocky, who has a long term contract with Audi. And even if Audi leaves LMP1 in 2014 in favor of the Porsche program, Audi can run the R8 LMS in the GTE class (which in the WEC and LM will feature the old/current gen GT2 cars and GT3 cars), and they'd probably want Rocky to be in one of those cars should they race.

[JAG]

Aside from being wrong about GT3 cars being allowed at Le Mans, there's not a chance any Audi/Porsche contracted driver will be in a GT, if either wants them in their P1.

[AGD]

Maybe it's not a big deal if Porsche and Audi compete against each other now, but I can't imagine Audi going to GTE because that is definitely Porsche's bread and butter. But, yes, all that stuff about GT1, GT2, and GT3 balancing is for the Ratel series, not the ACO. Then again, 2014 is a long way off and who knows what will happen then. Anyway, if VAG thinks that GTE racing is important and they don't mind competing against each other, I figure that it would make more sense to have competitive Lambos in GTE, but each division may have a budget to do whatever they want.

[chernaudi]

There's that, and the fact that the 911 is basically obsolescent as a GT car outside of performance ballanced series like GT3.

The rear engined layout is long in the tooth, and only the determination of the teams and drivers in my mind has kept the car competitive. Porsche doesn't want to race the Cayman because that would make it seem more upmarket than the 911 (which when you consider that they're racing against beefed up $50k Corvettes that though based off the high buck ZR1, have more in common with the base cars as far as power train than anything else, having the Cayman go up against that type of car isn't a bad idea for marketing), and tradition is keeping Porsche from designing a legitimate mid-engined 911.

The Audi R8 is a mid engined car, and that car it seems is due for a facelift or replacement within a few years time. Maybe then Audi will make a GTE variant, though there's nothing (aside from Audi's own policies) keeping Audi from making a GTE R8 now--most of the work is done, all they have to do from a basic standpoint is upgrade it to ACO safety standards, slightly de-tune the engine, and fit wider wheels and tires on it. The R8 has run competitivly with GT2/GTE cars in the past, and shows how little work is needed to make a GTE version.

But we also have to remember this from both the LMP and GT end of things--Porsche generally since the days of the 956/962 rarely get involved in racing unless they believe that they can sell some cars. So expect the GT customer program to continue as long as it doesn't hurt the LMP program, or if Porsche want the 911 to keep racing.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

There's that, and the fact that the 911 is basically obsolescent as a GT car outside of performance ballanced series like GT3.

The rear engined layout is long in the tooth, and only the determination of the teams and drivers in my mind has kept the car competitive. Porsche doesn't want to race the Cayman because that would make it seem more upmarket than the 911 (which when you consider that they're racing against beefed up $50k Corvettes that though based off the high buck ZR1, have more in common with the base cars as far as power train than anything else, having the Cayman go up against that type of car isn't a bad idea for marketing), and tradition is keeping Porsche from designing a legitimate mid-engined 911.

The Audi R8 is a mid engined car, and that car it seems is due for a facelift or replacement within a few years time. Maybe then Audi will make a GTE variant, though there's nothing (aside from Audi's own policies) keeping Audi from making a GTE R8 now--most of the work is done, all they have to do from a basic standpoint is upgrade it to ACO safety standards, slightly de-tune the engine, and fit wider wheels and tires on it. The R8 has run competitivly with GT2/GTE cars in the past, and shows how little work is needed to make a GTE version.

But we also have to remember this from both the LMP and GT end of things--Porsche generally since the days of the 956/962 rarely get involved in racing unless they believe that they can sell some cars. So expect the GT customer program to continue as long as it doesn't hurt the LMP program, or if Porsche want the 911 to keep racing.

thats what people have been saying for the last 20-30 years, yet the 911 is still out there racing and winning, just look at the last season. you were semi correct, 997 is out dated, for the 991 I'd wait and see if I were you.

the porsche has a only a small hp and torque defiicit, compared to the Ferrari, with a engine that is almost 20 years old. th enew 991 gets a larger wheelbase, stiffer chassis DFI engine and aero updates, If you look at how close the 997 is to the BMW and Ferrari in race pace, less then a 0,5s off, you'd be a fool to think all of the abouve wont give them 0.5s on the 997, with the 991.

Audis ran competitivly against GTE with 100hp more, they are running with 530hp, whjile porsche and ferrari are running 450-460, if it had the weight/HP class of the GTE it would have been a lot slower.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

(which we don't know if they will or not, or even if the Porsche deal will even see the light of day like their LMP900 car that never turned a wheel in anger)

You are quite obsessed with this. Porsche had Wiedeking at the helm back then, and he was notoriously famous for being anti-racing. Furthermore, he sold the LMP900 project down the river in exchange for having a platform sharing capability (and development) with VAG for the Cayenne series. It happened once, and will not likely happen again.
Oh, and BTW, it is rumored that Wiedeking allowed Audi to take a "close" look at the car before they developed their R8 LMP

Originally Posted by chernaudi

..., I do believe that VAG will con Audi into sharing they hybrid technology with Porsche, especially if Porsche tries to develop and independant system that doesn't work.

Why would Porsche's system not work? They have tremendous experience with Hybrid's and so why would they look to Audi for technical advice?

[The Badger]

Nobody does it better than Porscge ...... all those historic wins across the ponds ..... in all major sportscar series ..... none better .

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Nobody does it better than Porscge ...... all those historic wins across the ponds ..... in all major sportscar series ..... none better .

Is that sarcasm or are you really such a hopeless fanboy?

Audi will be a very tough nut to crack for Porsche as they´re rarely met opponents of this quality when they had their success.

And please don't get started on the RS Spyder business, that car would have never even competed with the R10 if it would not have been for the laughable ALMS rules in favor of a good "show".

[arakis]

dude Audi is like 10 steps below in sportscar racing.

Porsche are fomous for chosing their battles carefully, they wont enter LMP1 unless they think they have more then just a chance at victory.
They are also famus for liberal rule interpretations.

Porsche has been racing and wining in sportscars for 40-50 years, audi has been in it for the last 10, and the R8 didnt realy have any competitin. the R10 barly survied against Peugeut, same for the R15, even the R18 is strugeling. And Porsche surre as hell is no Peugeut...

[Acid09]

I seriously think everybody tends to overrate Porsche because of their impressive past. Even Acura beat them numerous times in P2 and they sure aren't of Audi quality..

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I seriously think everybody tends to overrate Porsche because of their impressive past. Even Acura beat them numerous times in P2 and they sure aren't of Audi quality..

Yeah Acura 1 upped Porsche at their own game in P2 and we all know how Acura's P1 effort went lol........But i still think Porsches effort is going to be just as strong as anyone else.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by Acid09

And please don't get started on the RS Spyder business, that car would have never even competed with the R10 if it would not have been for the laughable ALMS rules in favor of a good "show".

Oh i beg to differ.back when the ALMS was still using ACO LMP2 rules in 2005/2006/2007.the Porsche was quicker than the Audi R8(although the R8 was heavily restricted).And in 2007 that RS spyder was more than a match for the R10 on shorter tracks. keep in mind this was all when the P2 regulations hadn't been "boosted".

the supposed regulations call for 775kg prototypesThat is right in Porsche Sweet Spot.The first generation RS Spyders were 750kg. They were giant killers at that.What Porsche is bringin for 2014 isn;t going to be that idfferent from the RS Spyder(except for hybrid tech).They know how to build that kind of car already.

Im not saying Porsche is better than evveryone but they are certainly one of the best.And will challenge Audi and PEugeot for sure.Audi and peugeot have never built LMP2 pace cars(that basically what the 2014 rules with the 775kg weight limit). Both the Rs spyder and The Acura have put on stunning performances in the P2 class leaving the competition in the dust. 2014 would have been the right time for Acura as well.Oh well

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

Yeah Acura 1 upped Porsche at their own game in P1 and we all know how Acura's P1 effort went lol........But i still think Porsches effort is going to be just as strong as anyone else.

Yep, the amazing 2009 Acura LMP1 program dominating against world class powerhouses such as Jon Field, the Dyson Mazaerola and *insert generic Lola team here*. To be fair, it sat on pole at Sebring, but at Petit and Sebring against Audi and Peugeot it didnt do anything really impressive other than the pole lap. The Oreca 01 beat them at Petit as well.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Yep, the amazing 2009 Acura LMP1 program dominating against world class powerhouses such as Jon Field, the Dyson Mazaerola and *insert generic Lola team here*. To be fair, it sat on pole at Sebring, but at Petit and Sebring against Audi and Peugeot it didnt do anything really impressive other than the pole lap. The Oreca 01 beat them at Petit as well.

Sorry man.....i accidentally said P1 instead of P2. i meant to say Acura 1 upped porsche in P2.Ad that the P1 effort was an lol. sorry typo

[Audi Racer]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...hes-p1-return/

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Is that sarcasm or are you really such a hopeless fanboy?

Audi will be a very tough nut to crack for Porsche as they´re rarely met opponents of this quality when they had their success.

And please don't get started on the RS Spyder business, that car would have never even competed with the R10 if it would not have been for the laughable ALMS rules in favor of a good "show".

I said nobody does it better ..... I didnt say Porsche is the best .

Sarcasm ..... try to understand the sentance before you pass judgement .

[TF110]

Anyone can beat anyone. We just have to wait a while to see who's beating who. Porsche isn't the only powerhouse. Nissan, Toyota- arguably were as strong in prototype sports cars for a period of time. Not to mention Jaguar, Mercedes... Porsche is a famous name, but if Jag said the same news it'd be great. If Ferrari said the same news, people would also go bonkers. I don't think any one car make is going to gather the attention Porsche's announcement did, but who's to say other makes don't establish a name for themselves in the present and future by beating Porsche? Audi has made a name for itself with their diesel P1's. This happened in the past decade.

[Spyderman]

You are absolutely correct. There is nothing more constant than change. It will not be a walk in the park for Porsche, and it will be interesting to see what they come up with.

[Mal]

Whilst they may go separately in some areas there will certainly be many common parts between Audi and Porsches cars as it would make no financial sense to build them totally independently