The "Good Old Days" were they?

[aj_308]

of course, just keeping with the 'good old days' thread title..

[Robert Ryan]

Another Hypothetical: What would have happened if the "Roadracing" type sedans that raced on the pavement at Liverpool had become more popular? I know Barry Graham, Brian Callaghan,John Hogan(Torana) Tony Noske(Torana) and even Jack Hewitt!! ran at the old Amaroo Park roadracing circuit. More roadcourses and paved short ovals, it would seem logical.

[Dazz]

I'm a great lover of the Sports Sedan Concept and wish that it was as popular now as it was "back then" (whenever back then was?).

The problem is that, from my perspective, back then you had "Touring Cars" which were essentially road cars with light to medium modifications, I guess similar to the GTP concept these days, give or take. These cars allowed clever engineers to work with very strict guidelines and mostly standard road car components to get the best out of something that was not designed as a racing car.

And "Sports Sedans", were hightly modified creations which allowed creative minds to explore the many different ways in which you can go about achieving a similar goal. Still within a set of regulations of course, but regs which still allowed for thinking outside of the square. Regs which allowed wild ideas to be tried and tested and innovations to be explored.

What we have today with V8 Supercars, is a cross between the two, but with the negative points of both classes, from a point of view of having road car relevance. V8SC's are now something that is so far removed from the based on road car that it has no real ties to the car the general public can buy, and is in a lot of ways more like a Sports Sedan. However the rules are so tight that there is no real room for thinking outside the square any more. It is merely getting the best from what you are allowed to do.

I see V8SC's as Sports Sedans with road based Toring Car rules, basically.

Imagine some of the creations we would see if our top V8 Supercar teams were building Sports Sedan type vehicles!

You would still have strict rules as far as engine displacement, induction, weight and tyre limits etc, but as far as engine placement, gearbox type, suspension designs, you would see a grid full of cars that would all have different characteristics, but I think would still be all within a close enough performance level. And if one team happened across something that gave them an edge through clever thinking, then so be it.

Rules can be structured to make it so that ultra expensive items and materials are not allowed, and if you implement a form of component life guidelines, like engine/gearbox's/turbo's/diffs/etc cannot be replaced every race, then you would have a class which allows any manufacturer to come and play with any type of car so long as it fits the basic rule structure.

Unfortunately we will never ever go back to a proper touring car formula based on road cars becasue people want to see close racing these days, and not the best car win.

And with the current V8SC formula we have cars that are about the same performance level of a Sports Sedan and give off a similar (but nowhere near as exciting) vibe.

I guess one of the biggest failures of Sports Sedans is that no longer do we see our big name drivers taking part in this area, which I think could possible bring a lot of newer fans to the category again.

[FalconEL]

Originally posted by Dazz
Unfortunately we will never ever go back to a proper touring car formula based on road cars becasue people want to see close racing these days, and not the best car win.

And with the current V8SC formula we have cars that are about the same performance level of a Sports Sedan and give off a similar (but nowhere near as exciting) vibe.

I guess one of the biggest failures of Sports Sedans is that no longer do we see our big name drivers taking part in this area, which I think could possible bring a lot of newer fans to the category again.

Excellent post Dazz - right on the money.

[aj_308]

i wonder if garry rogers could race that V8 supercar ute in SS?

[FalconEL]

In fact, good posting by all.

As a Sports Sedan diehard, it still pleases me to see that there are people around that are fans of the category. There are still some awesome cars around thesedays and it's quite correct that if we had some "name" drivers in them, some more interest and dollars may flow into the category.

I love driving them and working on them and trying to make my own cars go faster on a limited budget. Regardless of how I've done in a race, I still come in with a smile on my face. There is nothing like knowing that you're punting around a good 550hp in a car of your own creation, doing times that would probably get you on the grid in a V8 Supercar race (well Konica at least ).

Laying black patches up the road, struggling to get the HP to the ground, that's what it's all about. Experimenting with suspension, aerodynamics and engineering with the freedom of knowing that you aren't going to incur the wrath of officialdom. It's just a great category!

I'd give my left one to drive my car at Bathurst - anything under a 2 mins 30 around there would be real a#$e-clenching stuff I reckon!!

[Robert Ryan]

Falcon EL, I hope Phil Crompton gets a few more enquries from other Sports Sedan people after the successful Premier Series round at Eastern Creek(entry wise at any rate)
He feels the cars need to be a little tighter as far as regulations go to get better parity in the field. There were 7 cars within 1 second at EC, so hopefully that number will increase. If some of the TraNZam cars of Kayne Scott and Fawcett's Jaguar and others are enticed across the Tasman, the "pointy end" is going to become sharper. People have been impressed by the power and speed of the cars. The TraNZam cars have power/speed/Looks. Maybe new Sports Sedans will have the simpler and effective TraNZam chassis with local bodywork? Anyway I hope the three New Trans Am Sports, The Monaro's front before the series finishes.

[Steve Holmes]

I've always loved Sports Sedans. Here in NZ, the class had always been given top billing as a national series, up until a couple of years ago. The class has always been very popular here, but has always struggled to gather decent sized fields. There are a few reasons for this. There have actually always been two Sports Sedan type championships here. Sports Sedan, and the South Island OSCA (Open Saloon Car Association). OSCA spawned out of the old Allcomer class which was killed off at the end of the '67 season, and has been going ever since.

But Sports Sedan and OSCA haven't always been friendly, and this sometimes caused problems with the small fields. But usually cars from OSCA would compete in the NZ Sports Sedan championship. Also, when Greg Lancaster was in charge of motorsport here in the early '90s, he changed our Sports Sedan regs so only American Trans-Am (TraNZam) type cars were eligible. This created more problems. The OSCA guys were happy with what they had, and didn't want to change, and there were actually separate races at the same meetings for TraNZam and OSCA.

TraNZam always struggled for numbers, although sometimes there were flashes where numbers picked up. But the cars themselves were spectacular. But it seemed Kiwi punters missed the old regs with the old V8 Capris, V8 RX7s, etc. Cars they could identify with, even though they were radically altered. But that kiwi ingenuity thing was a part of the classes attraction. Every car was different. The plastic bodied TraNZam cars all looked the same, and were barely identifyable.

Also, the massive growth in the excellent NZ V8 Touring Cars took a lot of teams and sponsors away from TraNZam. TraNZam lost its championship status a few years ago due to consistent lack of numbers. OSCA is still going strong in the South Island, and an announcement has just been made that the class is to gain a North Island arm.

Many of the cars which competed in TraNZam are now competing in the Australian series, and if you get the chance, go check them out. They are a buzz to watch.

Personally I love the cars from the old series, and have always enjoyed following the Australian series too. I think the 70s were the best.

For those interested in the era, read Graham Howards excellent piece in the June/July issue of MRA. After the rules were changed, from Series Production and Improved Production to Group C and Sports Sedan from 1973, Sports Sedan was the most popular class for a couple of years. From what I can tell, it continued to be very popular until around 1977 when Frank Gardner cleaned up everything in his Chev Corvair.But that was a neat era, on both sides of the Tasman.

[mickj]

Another fan of Sports Sedans.
My favourite is/was Bryan Thomsons VW. Who can forget Harry Lefoes Hillman Imp fitted with a Ford V8.
A few early Victorian cars I remember are a Renault Dauphine with a mid mounted Holden 6 which I think had a supercharger fitted. VW beetles with Holden 6's. Another with an Olds motor hung out the back, talk about the tail waving the dog. Another a Vanguard with a Holden 6.

[Steve Holmes]

I wonder what happened to the VW Chev? Most of the Sports Sedans based around F5000 components were eventually stripped of them as the value of F5000 began going up.

My favourite Aussie Sports Sedan was Bob Janes beautiful HQ Monaro, in its early Improved Touring and 1973/74 Sports Sedan guise, before it started sprouting big flares and wings.

Favourite NZ Sports Sedan was the ex Rod Coppins 67 Camaro, when John Osborne had it in the early 80s. Now beautifully restored and owned by my mate Tony Boyden.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by mickj
Another fan of Sports Sedans.
My favourite is/was Bryan Thomsons VW. Who can forget Harry Lefoes Hillman Imp fitted with a Ford V8.

Sports sedans really evolved from the "improved production touring cars" of the 60's which was the ATCC then. Thommo's Volksy was a classic "stop-go" innovation that really started a bit of high-tech in sports sedans/GT (Thommo and Fowler were good at it too) such as the Corvair, The 9 Charger, Jane's Monza, Thommo's awesome Merc, the Edmondson Alfa etc.
I absolutely love 'em - they seem to die off then make a comeback every couple of years. If the right promotion was made, I think there are enough good ones around at the moment to make a great series. Some, like the Alfa for example need a body upgrade to something a bit newer but, hey, it still goes awful quick.

BTW, that Hillman Imp was built originally by Tubby Ritter - I was at Hume Wier for it's very first outing.

[pete55]

One P.Brock was running his A30 around same time at Hume Weir. That Imp was a beast.
Barry Sharp had some wild creations too. One car i remember being pretty quick considering it's simplicity was the Wayne Rogerson XW Falcon. Pat Crea had a nice Beetle and a Cortina after that.
I believe the Thompson VW was broken up and sold for parts, bit of a shame really.

[deeks6]

I'll get corrected here but was Chocolates Robertson's Capri V8 the first real beast made?

There was also Jim Smith's Camel Rover and all the converted Porsches...

[Steve Holmes]

Not sure what might be classified as a 'beast', probably most Sports Sedans. The Capri was certainly the first, or one of the first, space frame sports sedans, and the first of many Capri sports sedans too.

The Bruce Cary V8 Capri followed soon after. Ian Munt bought that car from Cary and it came back to NZ with him. Has been here ever since and still competes in South Island OSCA events.

[pete55]

Whatever happened to David Robertson?

[deeks6]

Don't know ... I do remember him having a big wipe-out at Sandown and wiping out many metres of fencing just before turn 1.

Thommo and Fowler built a great Torana V8 with a Jag rear end and some very smart aero which was a real weapon but they nobbled it a bit by making him take a lot of the aero off it. Janey's Torana with the Repco-Olds was also good as was the HDT Beast. There was also the Sidchrome Mustang and Bob's beautiful Monaro. Ah, the memories...
I rememeber a race at Calder where they pitted the 3 Torana V8s against 3 of another make (was it Mustangs? Moffat/Geoghegan/Richards)... have to look it up.
I think Mark Oastler Muscle Car was trying to track down the Robertson Capri but I don't know if they did.

[Bruce Moxon]

Thommo still has the body shell and other bits from the VW. Hero car for me too - Dad had a Type 3 wagon and it was pretty cool to see one racing. And for that reason, Pat Crea was a hero too, with the very quick VW Type 1.

Maybe that's why I don't buy into the Ford / Holden thing? Dad went from the VW to a Rambler to a Charger to another VW.

I liked the older style Sports Sedans - a small car with lots of engine. Don't get too excited about full chassis, just a junker you put together out of a wreck or an old dunger and a 44 gallon drum of nuts and bolts. Like the Torana Grice built or the Escort Bo Seton put together for Glenn.

I'd love to build a Sports Sedan like that, without dicking around with making a full chassis to jam inside the body shell. How about a Datsun 120Y with a Nissan V6? You could offend a great many people that way.


Bruce Moxon

[pete55]

They are the true Sports Sedans. I don't care now and didn't then that they didn't have the latest body styles. It was part of the character of Sports Sedans.
I just wish it would happen again.

[Robert Ryan]

pete 55, if we keep on mentioning it will. Thomo's first driver for the Mercedes was a very youthful John Bowe. He raced it before Bryan decided to make the car more of a cross between a Porsche and a Mercedes 450.
Nonetheless, a much more stock looking Mercedes sponsored by Michelob beer, appeared in Trans Am in the early 1980's. It is interesting we had wilder looking cars running in Australia well before that.
BTW. I have shown a few people who are involved with Trans Am and new AGt series(forolder T/aA cars) photos of Frank Gardener's Corvair . They were totally blown away by it.

[johnh875]

mickj, deeks6, pete55, et al - do any of you know where I can find more info on Harry Lefoe's Imp? I've got the MRA from last year with a feature on it, but only ever heard people talk of it apart from that (plenty of people...)

[Robert Ryan]

Changing tack a minute. What is little known is a Repco-Holden , Lola driven By Frank matich won the F5000 race at the now defunct Riverside racecourse in the US. It is a real crying shame Repco gave up developing the Holden engine.
http://www.oldracingcars.com/F5000/r...sp?RaceID=RI71

[Morris 1100]

It was a Mclaren M10

[Robert Ryan]

Also the Late Peter Revson's effort as a rookie in his Repco-Brabham at the 1969 Indy 500. He was driving their 4.2 Litre Engine. Reoco were also working on a 2,6 Litre turbocharged engine as well..but they pulled out before it was properly developed.

1969 Indianapolis 500
FP SP Car Driver Car Name
Chassis/Engine
Running or Reason Out Laps
Comp Prize
Money Qual.
Speed 1 2 2 Andretti, Mario STP Oil Treatment
Hawk/Ford
Running 200 $206,727 169.851 2 10 48 Gurney, Dan Olsonite/All American Racers
Eagle/Weslake-Ford
Running 200 $67,732 167.341 3 3 1 Unser, Bobby Bardahl/Leader Cards
Lola/Offy
Running 200 $45,647 169.683 4 24 9 Kenyon, Mel Krohne Grain/3-K Racing
Gerhardt/Offy
Running 200 $30,612 165.426 5 33 92 Revson, Peter(R) Repco-Brabham
Brabham/Repco
Flagged 197 $25,722 160.85

[pete55]

Maybe you could contact Tubby Ritter (Graham). You might be able to get hold of him through Sonic Motorsport.

[retro]

Originally posted by Robert Ryan
pete 55, if we keep on mentioning it will. Thomo's first driver for the Mercedes was a very youthful John Bowe. He raced it before Bryan decided to make the car more of a cross between a Porsche and a Mercedes 450.
Nonetheless, a much more stock looking Mercedes sponsored by Michelob beer, appeared in Trans Am in the early 1980's. It is interesting we had wilder looking cars running in Australia well before that.
BTW. I have shown a few people who are involved with Trans Am and new AGt series(forolder T/aA cars) photos of Frank Gardener's Corvair . They were totally blown away by it.

There is a story about the Grice/Gardner Corvair = they had some sort of falling out over the car so Gricey took it to the dump and pulled out everything saleable and got the dump guy to put the dozer over the shell.