the future of american sportscar racing

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by DS"

Recently, Wolfgang Ullrich gave motorsport-total.com an interview, where he said that there would be only a racing program in America, if there is an importer who finances a large chunk of it. But appearantly Audi North America isn't interested enough in the ALMS. Can't blame them though, because there isn't really anyone to beat for them. Maybe HPD, if they had stayed in the ALMS. But not a privately entered Aston and some Lolas.

It has nothing to do with having someone to beat. They feel they get more return sponsoring golf tournaments and Super Bowl ads.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It has nothing to do with having someone to beat. They feel they get more return sponsoring golf tournaments and Super Bowl ads.

Sad but true.

On the other hand, Penske was appearantly willing to run an ALMS season with the R15s, but for some reason Audi said no. If Penske got their wish, we could have had a bit more decent season. I mean, we don't know if the ALMS will make it to 2014, when Porsche returns to LMP1.

[johntt]

IMO What the ALMS needs to do is combine P1 and P2 into one class, and extend the time the grandfathered cars like the Aston can run in the series. GT should be left alone, as should LMPC.

Between GT and GTC there should be a GT3 class, run according to the SRO BoP system and stipulate an amateur driver requirement like GT-Am has in LMS/LM24 to stop it cannibalising the GT class.

GTC should follow the format that they are going to with LMS next year with Carrera Cup 911s and Ferrari Challenge 458s. I would keep the GTC class alongside GT3 as it would allow teams running in the Porsche/Ferrari Challenges to move into the big league without having to buy completely new cars.

[broadrun96]

The Atlanta ABC station seems to run Audi ads in mosr every weekday primetime show. Personally been hoping they'll add a 'Come see the R18 at Road Atlanta on Oct 1' slide at the end of the promo, know it's not their job to publicize the ALMS but it couldn't hurt their ability to sell the racing program for a low cost.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by johntt

IMO What the ALMS needs to do is combine P1 and P2 into one class, and extend the time the grandfathered cars like the Aston can run in the series.

If there's going to be a shake-up they may as well move to P2 only like the LMS. What would a combined grid achieve, anyone with new P1 machinery isn't going to be happy being pegged back to cost-capped P2's, and grandfathered P1's don't have long left.

Much as I like P1 the LMS will be better entertainment with 12-15 equally matched P2's than half a dozen P1's run by teams with vastly different resources.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It has nothing to do with having someone to beat. They feel they get more return sponsoring golf tournaments and Super Bowl ads.

And ALMS race highlights! They buy ads for those too. In fact, I saw an Audi ad that I have never seen before featuring the R15+ win at Le Mans last year. I don't know if it is new.

Originally Posted by johntt

IMO What the ALMS needs to do is combine P1 and P2 into one class, and extend the time the grandfathered cars like the Aston can run in the series. GT should be left alone, as should LMPC.

Between GT and GTC there should be a GT3 class, run according to the SRO BoP system and stipulate an amateur driver requirement like GT-Am has in LMS/LM24 to stop it cannibalising the GT class.

GTC should follow the format that they are going to with LMS next year with Carrera Cup 911s and Ferrari Challenge 458s. I would keep the GTC class alongside GT3 as it would allow teams running in the Porsche/Ferrari Challenges to move into the big league without having to buy completely new cars.

Grandfathering will most likely continue. As for bringing over SRO rules to the ALMS, just say no! As for adding another class of GT that is hard for viewers to discern from the other two, I don't think that is such a great idea either.

Originally Posted by JAG

Much as I like P1 the LMS will be better entertainment with 12-15 equally matched P2's than half a dozen P1's run by teams with vastly different resources.

ALMS P1 has been entertaining most of the time this year. But, yeah, LMS should be epic next year. It's probably been my favorite series over the last few years even though I can't get it on TV here. Unlike the ALMS and the WEC to an extent, the LMS knows who they are and isn't afraid to stick to their convictions. I have to give Peter a lot of credit for that.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by DS"

If the ALMS could field 10 LMPs and 20 GTEs, they could make a Formula Le Mans series as well as Carrera Cup America.

Think about it, a package with ALMS, GT3, FLM and PCC sounds decent enough.

Well, the IMSA GT3 Cup Challenge is a Carrera Cup America with another name. Then the IMSA Prototype Lites is a prototype championship similar to the Speed Euroseries, but with low-displacement engines (2.3L Mazda in one class and 1.0L Kawasaki ZX10R or Suzuki GSXR bike engines).

[johntt]

Originally Posted by AGD

Grandfathering will most likely continue. As for bringing over SRO rules to the ALMS, just say no! As for adding another class of GT that is hard for viewers to discern from the other two, I don't think that is such a great idea either.

I see your point, but surely its best for ALMS to steal the march on Grand-Am in this aspect?

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It has nothing to do with having someone to beat. They feel they get more return sponsoring golf tournaments and Super Bowl ads.

Probably more than a "feel." It's hard math done by marketeers, with POP surveys, etc.
Also, with how small the sports car fan base is, compared to the number of NFL, golf, tennis fans there are, it only stands to reason.

It is pretty interesting though, that Audi are using the R18 in a couple of US aired TV commercials, during everything from the national morning "infotainment" shows (TODAY, GMA), to evening news and prime time.

BTW, to all, great discussion going here, with very well made points and opinions, with respect for all being made.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Well, the IMSA GT3 Cup Challenge is a Carrera Cup America with another name. Then the IMSA Prototype Lites is a prototype championship similar to the Speed Euroseries, but with low-displacement engines (2.3L Mazda in one class and 1.0L Kawasaki ZX10R or Suzuki GSXR bike engines).

Thanks for clarifying that matter. Looks like I didn't do the research^^. So they would have to spice up their support series a bit. Put some real GT3 cars into their Cup Challenge for example. I'm pretty certain that Mercedes, Audi and so on will be happy if they can sell their GT3 cars in America.

Originally Posted by Breitling24

BTW, to all, great discussion going here, with very well made points and opinions, with respect for all being made.

I second that. This forum in general is one of the nicer places in the web. Are there any trolls around here? Discussions like these are what the internet should be made of.

[WolfsburgRS]

This post is from the ALMS 2011 thread, and I figured it would work well over here with some changes, but basically in my opinion, at some point the ALMS has to put itself first and make sure to take care of its own competitors rather than trying to entice more overseas competitors.

It's pretty clear that most international teams have zero interest in the ALMS as far as being a season-long entry, and I don't think that it's a requirement that IMSA align itself with Le Mans, particularly in terms of prototypes, since the only team who had competed in the recent past is Highcroft. In GT there are the Lizards and Corvette that go to Le Mans year in, year out, and Robertson and Risi, though not all at the same time. Perhaps GT2/E could remain aligned to ACO rules so those teams didn't have to splash out for changes and new equipment for one race, butlet's face it, Le Mans doesn't do IMSA any favors as far as scheduling. (that big hole in the schedule kills a lot of momentum)

I'd say a break from the ACO is going to have to happen at some point, as blindly following along with their rules, when they don't suit the racing market in the USA, will not do anything to help the long-term health of the series. I also think 4 classes (or 5) is way too many to keep track of.

Back in the day at Le Mans they had an 'IMSA' class. Why not do the same thing for ILMC / WEC next year in IMSA? Rather than trying to make everything fit into one box, open up regs for ALMS (why not call it IMSA GT?) and then IF they can make a race or two fit into the WEC schedule, create a WEC class for those entries. That way everyone keeps racing against their peers (and teams like Dyson and Muscle Milk don't get shafted by the diesels) and IMSA keeps its own committed competitors up front for their own points and glory.

So my solution would be:

GTP - Basically an LMP1/2 combined class, open to all grandfathered chassis options, including an upgrade package option for LMPC cars, and seriously opening up the exhausts on those V8s so they sound like proper race cars. In fact, go the old "IMSA GTP" route for NA street-based engines like the GM LS series, with a sliding weight / displacement scale.

LMPC = GONE

GT - stays aligned to ACO GTE specs for GT teams that want to go to Le Mans, but open up additional chassis / engine options to be performance balanced to the GTE class. GT3 cars not currently produced to GT2 spec or not sold to privateers would go here. (Audi, McLaren, Z4, etc)

GTC - Keep the performance level based around the GT3 Cup 911, as it is a great car and a good standard measuring stick, but open up further to highly modified 'lower-end' sports cars, like the Camaro, Mustang, 370Z, Hyundai's coupe, etc.

Now, assuming the natural ebb and flow of grid size, the GTC class might need to be pruned off of smaller main events as a support race, to make room for additional prototypes and GT cars, much like GTU was handled back in the day. Longer races (Sebring, 10 hours of Road Atlanta) could have all 3 classes combined.

If the WEC wanted to run a combined event for Sebring or Road Atlanta, great, if not, whatever. Sometimes it's time to march to the beat of your own drum.

As far as Grand Am goes, I think they've got a lot more 'right' than they do 'wrong' - but their wrongs (the DPs) are so wrong that it's unforgivable.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by WolfsburgRS

So my solution would be:

GTP - Basically an LMP1/2 combined class, open to all grandfathered chassis options, including an upgrade package option for LMPC cars, and seriously opening up the exhausts on those V8s so they sound like proper race cars. In fact, go the old "IMSA GTP" route for NA street-based engines like the GM LS series, with a sliding weight / displacement scale.

LMPC = GONE

GT - stays aligned to ACO GTE specs for GT teams that want to go to Le Mans, but open up additional chassis / engine options to be performance balanced to the GTE class. GT3 cars not currently produced to GT2 spec or not sold to privateers would go here. (Audi, McLaren, Z4, etc)

GTC - Keep the performance level based around the GT3 Cup 911, as it is a great car and a good standard measuring stick, but open up further to highly modified 'lower-end' sports cars, like the Camaro, Mustang, 370Z, Hyundai's coupe, etc.

Now, assuming the natural ebb and flow of grid size, the GTC class might need to be pruned off of smaller main events as a support race, to make room for additional prototypes and GT cars, much like GTU was handled back in the day. Longer races (Sebring, 10 hours of Road Atlanta) could have all 3 classes combined.

If the WEC wanted to run a combined event for Sebring or Road Atlanta, great, if not, whatever. Sometimes it's time to march to the beat of your own drum.

I like your proposal, this would be a return to the GTP, GTO and GTU of IMSA. would be great!!!

[AGD]

Originally Posted by johntt

I see your point, but surely its best for ALMS to steal the march on Grand-Am in this aspect?

I don't think the ALMS should go on the defensive. I think they should just do whatever is best for them.

Originally Posted by WolfsburgRS

GTP - Basically an LMP1/2 combined class, open to all grandfathered chassis options, including an upgrade package option for LMPC cars, and seriously opening up the exhausts on those V8s so they sound like proper race cars. In fact, go the old "IMSA GTP" route for NA street-based engines like the GM LS series, with a sliding weight / displacement scale.

LMPC = GONE

GT - stays aligned to ACO GTE specs for GT teams that want to go to Le Mans, but open up additional chassis / engine options to be performance balanced to the GTE class. GT3 cars not currently produced to GT2 spec or not sold to privateers would go here. (Audi, McLaren, Z4, etc)

GTC - Keep the performance level based around the GT3 Cup 911, as it is a great car and a good standard measuring stick, but open up further to highly modified 'lower-end' sports cars, like the Camaro, Mustang, 370Z, Hyundai's coupe, etc.

Now, assuming the natural ebb and flow of grid size, the GTC class might need to be pruned off of smaller main events as a support race, to make room for additional prototypes and GT cars, much like GTU was handled back in the day. Longer races (Sebring, 10 hours of Road Atlanta) could have all 3 classes combined.

If the WEC wanted to run a combined event for Sebring or Road Atlanta, great, if not, whatever. Sometimes it's time to march to the beat of your own drum.

As far as Grand Am goes, I think they've got a lot more 'right' than they do 'wrong' - but their wrongs (the DPs) are so wrong that it's unforgivable.

I'm mostly ok with your proposal. It keeps the ALMS/IMSA close to ACO spec without going all the way ACO. The thing about GT, and your proposal does this to some extent, is that I would like to see classes based on street car performance. Trying to match up the performance of a whole mixed and match set of street cars does not do the spirit of GT racing justice IMO. I'd like to see a lot of different GT cars racing, but let them all race in classes that are relatively appropriate. Whether that means 2 or 3 classes, I don't know. I guess it depends on demand. I definitely think that a Pony car class should be considered. I think there would be considerable interest especially if the costs in that class are kept somewhat constrained.

As for the events under your proposal, it may be best to not have shared races with the WEC. They would suck all the oxygen out of the air and they would take grid spots away from teams that could really benefit from being in the one/two biggest races of the year. Plus, maybe we could have our own 24 hour race again here in the US.

[Breitling24]

Great points, Wolf' and AGD. Well said. I wonder if the minds in Georgia would be afraid to take a "step back."

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by WolfsburgRS

LMPC = GONE

LMPC cars could be (it seems very easily) converted to LMP2 for those that have made the investment. I don't know why they don't do this now other than to not **** off Scott Tucker.

[Jacques Rabbit]

Originally Posted by WolfsburgRS

This post is from the ALMS 2011 thread, and I figured it would work well over here with some changes, but basically in my opinion, at some point the ALMS has to put itself first and make sure to take care of its own competitors rather than trying to entice more overseas competitors.

It's pretty clear that most international teams have zero interest in the ALMS as far as being a season-long entry, and I don't think that it's a requirement that IMSA align itself with Le Mans, particularly in terms of prototypes, since the only team who had competed in the recent past is Highcroft. In GT there are the Lizards and Corvette that go to Le Mans year in, year out, and Robertson and Risi, though not all at the same time. Perhaps GT2/E could remain aligned to ACO rules so those teams didn't have to splash out for changes and new equipment for one race, butlet's face it, Le Mans doesn't do IMSA any favors as far as scheduling. (that big hole in the schedule kills a lot of momentum)

I'd say a break from the ACO is going to have to happen at some point, as blindly following along with their rules, when they don't suit the racing market in the USA, will not do anything to help the long-term health of the series. I also think 4 classes (or 5) is way too many to keep track of.

Back in the day at Le Mans they had an 'IMSA' class. Why not do the same thing for ILMC / WEC next year in IMSA? Rather than trying to make everything fit into one box, open up regs for ALMS (why not call it IMSA GT?) and then IF they can make a race or two fit into the WEC schedule, create a WEC class for those entries. That way everyone keeps racing against their peers (and teams like Dyson and Muscle Milk don't get shafted by the diesels) and IMSA keeps its own committed competitors up front for their own points and glory.

So my solution would be:

GTP - Basically an LMP1/2 combined class, open to all grandfathered chassis options, including an upgrade package option for LMPC cars, and seriously opening up the exhausts on those V8s so they sound like proper race cars. In fact, go the old "IMSA GTP" route for NA street-based engines like the GM LS series, with a sliding weight / displacement scale.

LMPC = GONE

GT - stays aligned to ACO GTE specs for GT teams that want to go to Le Mans, but open up additional chassis / engine options to be performance balanced to the GTE class. GT3 cars not currently produced to GT2 spec or not sold to privateers would go here. (Audi, McLaren, Z4, etc)

GTC - Keep the performance level based around the GT3 Cup 911, as it is a great car and a good standard measuring stick, but open up further to highly modified 'lower-end' sports cars, like the Camaro, Mustang, 370Z, Hyundai's coupe, etc.

Now, assuming the natural ebb and flow of grid size, the GTC class might need to be pruned off of smaller main events as a support race, to make room for additional prototypes and GT cars, much like GTU was handled back in the day. Longer races (Sebring, 10 hours of Road Atlanta) could have all 3 classes combined.

If the WEC wanted to run a combined event for Sebring or Road Atlanta, great, if not, whatever. Sometimes it's time to march to the beat of your own drum.

As far as Grand Am goes, I think they've got a lot more 'right' than they do 'wrong' - but their wrongs (the DPs) are so wrong that it's unforgivable.

I honestly think this is an excellent post. There's not a single point I don't agree with here. The closer ALMS got to the ACO, the further from ALMS I went. A cutting of ties is definitely the first thing needed, and I really like your proposed class structure. Some of the best battles I've ever seen in auto racing came between P1 and P2 cars in ALMS (whether in the combined class or in separate ones), so I always liked the combined class approach, and getting the PC cars to P2 spec would be a big step forward.

Great ideas. Now it's just a matter of finding out what ideas the management has for this series. I don't know about the finances, obviously, but I do know that from a pure racing perspective, there's so much potential here. Close racing is always exciting, and even moreso when you realize the cars doing it are so different even in the obvious areas (i.e. engine size, fuel type, etc.), let alone the technical stuff.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Jacques Rabbit

I honestly think this is an excellent post. There's not a single point I don't agree with here. The closer ALMS got to the ACO, the further from ALMS I went. A cutting of ties is definitely the first thing needed, and I really like your proposed class structure. Some of the best battles I've ever seen in auto racing came between P1 and P2 cars in ALMS (whether in the combined class or in separate ones), so I always liked the combined class approach, and getting the PC cars to P2 spec would be a big step forward.

Great ideas. Now it's just a matter of finding out what ideas the management has for this series. I don't know about the finances, obviously, but I do know that from a pure racing perspective, there's so much potential here. Close racing is always exciting, and even moreso when you realize the cars doing it are so different even in the obvious areas (i.e. engine size, fuel type, etc.), let alone the technical stuff.

You really think Don, Scotty (both of them), IMSA ect would do a better job in rules than the ACO??? Id like to think so, but Id doubt it. Instead of that clever class structure Wolfs suggested we would probably see more Pro Am spec classes if the ALMS in their current form split from the ACO. I realize the ACO are a part of the problem, but I doubt IMSA and the ALMS in their current form could do any better .

[pablocomics]

I always asked why Mosler isn´t on the ALMS. Maybe the new rules should stimulate the entry of Mosler on the ALMS. I still remember the Moster with GT2 spec on the spanish championship. it was an icredible car and really fast too.

ALMS needs more american car entries and the new Mosler MT900S Photon would be a good choice

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

You really think Don, Scotty (both of them), IMSA ect would do a better job in rules than the ACO??? Id like to think so, but Id doubt it. Instead of that clever class structure Wolfs suggested we would probably see more Pro Am spec classes if the ALMS in their current form split from the ACO. I realize the ACO are a part of the problem, but I doubt IMSA and the ALMS in their current form could do any better .

I think IMSA officials could....

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by pablocomics

I always asked why Mosler isn´t on the ALMS. Maybe the new rules should stimulate the entry of Mosler on the ALMS. I still remember the Moster with GT2 spec on the spanish championship. it was an icredible car and really fast too.

ALMS needs more american car entries and the new Mosler MT900S Photon would be a good choice

Mosler never built enough road cars to be homologated for ACO racing. Mosler isn't enough of a known name to the American Public to be of benefit marketing wise for the ALMS.