Red Bull using TC?.. or just a bumpy track?

[Zico]

At Canada GP Mark Webber left some dotted black lines on acceleration after his collision with the Caterham of Van Der Garde and at first glance the suggestion that Red Bull might be using some form of TC appears plausible.. but with the universal TAG ECU's used in F1 would it even be possible to get away with it?.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxig8iM7jDU

The throttle retardation version would be clearly audible and quite obvious to everyone while a system which uses the brakes would also require a seperate control unit which I'd imagine would be quite difficult to hide.

I reckon it's just due to suspension oscillations on a bumpy track or maybe the rev limiter.

Your thoughts?

[Richard C]

Oscillation within the drivetrain while at the limit of traction?

Richard

[Richard C]

It reminds me of this video from awhile back...

http://youtu.be/U-fEn1NHh4o?t=1m10s

I also wonder if the diff is sending power back and forth between the left and right rear tires. Both tire are just right at the traction limit. Left tire looses grip, so it applies more power to right, that causes left to stop spinning, but now the right is spinning, so it moves power back to left causing the right to stop, but now the left spins, rinse and repeat until the rear is no longer right at the limit of traction (either both wheels spin, or both don't spin)

Richard

[jsTrecu]

After I read about this I searched through other forums, there are pictures of Mercedes and Force India drawing similar marks on the tarmac.
I don't think it's TC if that many teams are behaving the same way.

[ascarracinguk]

Could be some sort of drag system on the axle from the Kers system stopping the axle spinning too fast

[Sodemo]

Definitely traction control, its about time we had another scandal.

[Malfunction Junction]

Axle tramp?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Definitely traction control, its about time we had another scandal.

Yeah, this 'tyregate' thing is wearing a bit thin now.

[wnut]

I think this is caused by tyre wind up, you see it in dragsters occasionally too.
(Side on photos of dragsters show the side walls wrinkling under the force of them launching off the start)
The side wall of the tyre becomes twisted storing up energy, and then it breaks traction and releases the energy, and so the cycle goes on.
Also affect the centre of gravity as the tyre diameter varies considerably during this cycle.
Not pleasant and very difficult to control coming out of a corner.

Would love to see a super slow motion of this process from the side!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

Would love to see a super slow motion of this process from the side!

Yeah. Why is it that MotoGP seems to be a whole lot better at it than FOM? They had some stonkingly brilliant slow-mos last Sunday. Talk about high definition!

Surely HD would be able to spot TC?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Yeah. Why is it that MotoGP seems to be a whole lot better at it than FOM? They had some stonkingly brilliant slow-mos last Sunday. Talk about high definition!

Surely HD would be able to spot TC?

Good question! Bernie TV is probably too cheap to invest in the equipment.

I don't think that you would be able to spot traction control Marbot, I was thinking more of watching the tyre wall wrinkling and bunching and then releasing the energy.

Enjoyed the segment with the sparks coming off the titanium elbow slider in the one corner - that was just awesome.

[Zico]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think this is caused by tyre wind up, you see it in dragsters occasionally too.
(Side on photos of dragsters show the side walls wrinkling under the force of them launching off the start)
The side wall of the tyre becomes twisted storing up energy, and then it breaks traction and releases the energy, and so the cycle goes on.
Also affect the centre of gravity as the tyre diameter varies considerably during this cycle.
Not pleasant and very difficult to control coming out of a corner.

Would love to see a super slow motion of this process from the side!

Yep, good call... makes a lot of sense.

Here is a good video of exactly what you describe. (50 secs in) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfJejgODr3E

[Stefvh]

They messed up the TC setting, here.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Zico

Yep, good call... makes a lot of sense.

Here is a good video of exactly what you describe. (50 secs in) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfJejgODr3E

Thanks Zico great footage!

42 secs in the marks on the track are exactly the same as Webber's RBR.

[JeremySmith]

Whatever....

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Whatever....

This is a pretty disappointing comment!

Hope you feel good about it!

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

This is a pretty disappointing comment!

Hope you feel good about it!

My comment was aimed at the subject matter....

It's a rather disappointing thread, Red Bull using TC is highly unlikely...

[Zico]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

My comment was aimed at the subject matter....

It's a rather disappointing thread, Red Bull using TC is highly unlikely...

Unlikely perhaps, but Imo still interesting and worthy of discussion nonetheless.
I'm sorry that you felt the subject matter/footage is so crass/uninteresting to merit such a comment.

[JeremySmith]

You are welcome to discuss the subject.. I rather doubt it's validity that is all...

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Zico

Unlikely perhaps, but Imo still interesting and worthy of discussion nonetheless.
I'm sorry that you felt the subject matter/footage is so crass/uninteresting to merit such a comment.

The only interesting thing was the footage of the drag car wheel wind up. It's quite obvious that RB do not use TC - it's illegal, and easy to police, and the downsides of being found out are so huge as to make even the thought it nonsensical.

On the other hand, I heard that Mclaren are trialling a gravity generator in their car, it reduces rotational inertia enabling them to corner much faster. Does require a huge amount of power however, so they are having to beef up the battery system and divert a lot of engine power to charge it up as the KERS can't keep up with the power demand. Worth it though due to the much higher cornering speeds. It's expected that is they can get to the required power levels, they will be able to do away with the wings, as the reduced inertia means less tyre grip is needed. So they will also be able to go much faster on the straights due to less drag, and also accelerate much faster. It's a win-win, IF they can get it to work and get the power requirements fulfilled.

[bella]

Originally Posted by wnut

Good question! Bernie TV is probably too cheap to invest in the equipment.

more to do with the camera points being wayyyy too far away from the subject matter to get the required close-ups i suspect which is why we only ever see them at monaco and singapore. the cameras with the relevant glass can get a lot closer there and produce the kind of slow mos you're talking about. for example, we see relatively little close-up trackside footage from the brand new circuits like austin because it's almost impossible to get a camera close enough to the action to make it worthwhile.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bella

more to do with the camera points being wayyyy too far away from the subject matter to get the required close-ups i suspect which is why we only ever see them at monaco and singapore. the cameras with the relevant glass can get a lot closer there and produce the kind of slow mos you're talking about. for example, we see relatively little close-up trackside footage from the brand new circuits like austin because it's almost impossible to get a camera close enough to the action to make it worthwhile.

Hi Bella, they can get super slow motion of night cricket with the bowlers hand on the ball in awful light, and MotorGP has some pretty long distances from the action and uses some of the same circuits, so it would seem that F1 is simply too cheap to spring for the necessary equipment?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JamesH

The only interesting thing was the footage of the drag car wheel wind up. It's quite obvious that RB do not use TC - it's illegal, and easy to police, and the downsides of being found out are so huge as to make even the thought it nonsensical.

On the other hand, I heard that Mclaren are trialling a gravity generator in their car, it reduces rotational inertia enabling them to corner much faster. Does require a huge amount of power however, so they are having to beef up the battery system and divert a lot of engine power to charge it up as the KERS can't keep up with the power demand. Worth it though due to the much higher cornering speeds. It's expected that is they can get to the required power levels, they will be able to do away with the wings, as the reduced inertia means less tyre grip is needed. So they will also be able to go much faster on the straights due to less drag, and also accelerate much faster. It's a win-win, IF they can get it to work and get the power requirements fulfilled.

I thought the OPs question was well worth asking, and would have shown many the results of tyre wind-up, so well worth asking and discussing.
Wonder if certain people even bothered reading the thread before posting.

Hi JamesH, is the gravity generator a giant gyroscope?
I have always wondered what effects could be generated with such a device.

Likewise the use of transverse engines; Ferrari 312T; to combat the effects of gyroscopic procession. I owned a MotoGuzzi for a short period of time, and I hated the way it dropped or picked itself out of corners, very disconcerting!
The effect has to be a factor on a car with a longitudinal engine cornering at the limit.

[bella]

Originally Posted by wnut

Hi Bella, they can get super slow motion of night cricket with the bowlers hand on the ball in awful light, and MotorGP has some pretty long distances from the action and uses some of the same circuits, so it would seem that F1 is simply too cheap to spring for the necessary equipment?

it's a fair point about cricket, though the equivalent to that would be singapore. in cricket the distances are less and the speeds are slower too, though arguably it's more of a challenge for the autofocus.

in terms of lens size equivalent for a stills camera to get the required detail in the shot you'd be probably looking at ~1000mm stuff with an immense autofocus.

since sky own more of that kind of equipment anyway (didn't they bring it to barcelona for preseason testing?) it would make sense to try and lease it from them. but i presume they'd want an exclusivity deal on the footage and it'd get messy.

can anyone give examples of motogp and the camera points they use for those kinds of shots? i'd be surprised if they'd managed it on the exact same layout as f1 on the tracks they share.

i do agree with you though. the monaco footage is always completely spellbindingly brilliant because of those slow-motion shots around the swimming pool. before hd they were of limited use (and were over-used) but now they're just incredible. what's most incredible now is that we're watching something flex in a completely controlled manner - that's exactly what the team designed it to do under those circumstances. there's nothing left to chance any more.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bella

it's a fair point about cricket, though the equivalent to that would be singapore. in cricket the distances are less and the speeds are slower too, though arguably it's more of a challenge for the autofocus.

in terms of lens size equivalent for a stills camera to get the required detail in the shot you'd be probably looking at ~1000mm stuff with an immense autofocus.

since sky own more of that kind of equipment anyway (didn't they bring it to barcelona for preseason testing?) it would make sense to try and lease it from them. but i presume they'd want an exclusivity deal on the footage and it'd get messy.

can anyone give examples of motogp and the camera points they use for those kinds of shots? i'd be surprised if they'd managed it on the exact same layout as f1 on the tracks they share.

i do agree with you though. the monaco footage is always completely spellbindingly brilliant because of those slow-motion shots around the swimming pool. before hd they were of limited use (and were over-used) but now they're just incredible. what's most incredible now is that we're watching something flex in a completely controlled manner - that's exactly what the team designed it to do under those circumstances. there's nothing left to chance any more.

Hi Bella, maybe this could be usefully split into its own thread.

Super Slow Motion HD TV coverage - Why Not?