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Old 25 May 2008, 14:33 (Ref:2211324)   #1
KA
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Group A Mercedes 190E - The other German car...

Another important Group A car we've not really talked about much on here is the Mercedes 190.

When it first appeared in 1985, it clearly had the edge over the Alfas in Class B, but within two years would be totally overshadowed by the appearance of the BMW M3.

Once the ETCC was over though, like the M3 it successfully raced on in progressively wilder Evo forms in the DTM into the early 90's, where it was handled by some very big name drivers and even into the early years of Supertouring in 2-litre form in places like Australia, Switzerland and the USA

I guess it's maybe one of the lesser-known cars in the UK, as apart from a couple of appearances by Prodsaloon versions it was never seen in the BTCC, so was only seen in the UK at the Donington ETCC round and the TT, and later when the DTM visited the UK.

It first appeared on the ETCC scene in 1985 with the Snobeck team
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-28-040.jpg

who were joined in 1986 by cars from Carlsson
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-04-06-047.jpg

and the Belgian Serge Power/Monroe car
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-03-050.jpg

The main Merc campaigner in 87 in the WTCC was AMG who ran a car for Peter Oberndorfer & Franz Klammer in most of the European rounds, ending at the TT, where they finished 4th- their best result of the season
http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/j...06SSTT-114.jpg

Other than the ETCC/WTCC cars there were lots of them in the DTM- think I'll come back to those in a later post....

Outside Europe, there was Phil Ward's car in Australia-
http://www.autopics.com.au/cache/ite....html?cache=no
think this was originally one of the pair of DTM cars AMG took to Bathurst in 1986? and Jesper mentioned a Japanese car in the Starion thread.

OK, those are the bare bones, so now over to the rest of you for the usual routine with these Group A threads- stories, pics, 'where are they now' etc.....

Last edited by KA; 25 May 2008 at 14:37.
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Old 26 May 2008, 15:33 (Ref:2212288)   #2
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Agai8n trying to lend some other formas of racing weight to this.

A guy called Wolfgang Wentzien ran one of these things in Euro Rallycross in teh late 80's I think.

And I also rememebr a Belgian guy called Kamiel Verekken running one.

Later on one fo teh bigger 2.5's was run by a guy called Lasse Lehtinen form Finland.

They were bit bog for rallycross compared to teh M3, and obviousl power wise couldnt compete with teh RS500 or even teh Volvo
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Old 26 May 2008, 18:23 (Ref:2212414)   #3
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Agai8n trying to lend some other formas of racing weight to this.

A guy called Wolfgang Wentzien ran one of these things in Euro Rallycross in teh late 80's I think.

And I also rememebr a Belgian guy called Kamiel Verekken running one.

Later on one fo teh bigger 2.5's was run by a guy called Lasse Lehtinen form Finland.

They were bit bog for rallycross compared to teh M3, and obviousl power wise couldnt compete with teh RS500 or even teh Volvo
I definitely remember the Vereeken car-I might have a pic of it somewhere, I'll have a look. They also appeared in rallying- Harald Demuth campaigned one in Europe for several years, and there was at least one Group N example appeared on UK events

Last edited by KA; 26 May 2008 at 18:27.
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Old 26 May 2008, 18:52 (Ref:2212431)   #4
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banger_racer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I have a couple of pics from 88/89 dtm not sure where i got them mag/website etc i've had them ages.
should i post them??
What happenned to the car Rouse used in Britcar?
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Old 26 May 2008, 19:00 (Ref:2212436)   #5
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
You are right KA, the guy was sponsored by Cicely If you reemebr and his name was Russel Morgan!! Was a champion I think, again before the Cossies came in!

I was looking at some Italian historic stuff on Youtube the otehr day and there is a 2.5 190E in there that sounds the business and driven real well, lovely car.

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Old 26 May 2008, 19:00 (Ref:2212437)   #6
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some 190 ran in France, there is some pics in the web, i'll upload them early...
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Old 26 May 2008, 19:18 (Ref:2212453)   #7
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I have a couple of pics from 88/89 dtm not sure where i got them mag/website etc i've had them ages.
should i post them??
What happenned to the car Rouse used in Britcar?
I'm pretty sure Rouse sold it on and the new owner,- Martin Johnston I think-carried on running it in Britcar etc for a while. It was an ex-DTM Evo version- don't know the history of it though.

I won't swear to this, but I've got a feeling Martin posts on 'Tenths from time to time- if memory serves, I think he owns/owned two or three original Group A RS500s as well- an ex-Tim Harvey Labatt's car, an Eggenberger and an ex-Rouse/Allan Moffatt Bathurst car in ANZ colours

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...nfrance014.jpg
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Old 26 May 2008, 19:43 (Ref:2212475)   #8
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Just had a bit of a search on the forum, and it seems that if Martin does have the ex-Rouse Britcar 190, he's returned it to original DTM colours
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=852


On the subject of the 190 in rallying, Demuth used a Merc in 1987/8 and again in the early 90's on European Championship events
http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?ty...driverid=16373

Won't swear to it, but I think this might be the car in question:
http://photobucket.com/image/mercede...G_0029.jpg?o=8

Last edited by KA; 26 May 2008 at 19:46.
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Old 26 May 2008, 20:01 (Ref:2212484)   #9
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bdwoody should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
martin did indeed own the ex andy rouse dtm merc 190 evo2 but has since sold it on .what a car i drove it around donnington it was the fastest thing there ,around the corners it was awsome and on the back straight in 6th it was just mad at 11,000 rpm.
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Old 26 May 2008, 20:05 (Ref:2212489)   #10
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Doesn't Greg Rose own it now?
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Old 26 May 2008, 21:04 (Ref:2212538)   #11
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no greg never owned it he just raced it for martin under the XSPORT RACING banner .martin sold it to a guy in europe some where and bought an ex aussie v8 falcon which greg also races.
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Old 26 May 2008, 21:11 (Ref:2212546)   #12
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Aha! Thanks Woody
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Old 30 May 2008, 21:04 (Ref:2215588)   #13
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From memory, the Snobeck prepared cars were the most competitive 190's in ETC in both 85 and 86? Danny and Alain got their car up amongst the Rovers, Volvos and Sierras on a few occassions in 1986.
But as has been said the M3's arrival took the wind out of Merc's sails a bit, although i'm sure that if they had wanted to take BMW on in Europe as they latterly did in DTM they could've tweaked it a bit. i guess marketing led them to concentrate on the home series.
Still Stuttgart must've been pretty impressed with the French squad to hand them a prep deal for DTM in the late 80's early 90's!
Shame we never got to see a privateer version in BTCC in mid 80's, a well run and driven car could quite easily have won the title outright.
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Old 31 May 2008, 08:39 (Ref:2215773)   #14
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the Australian cars

For Bathurst 1986 2 x Helmut Marko cars came down & were driven by Denny Hulme/Franz Klammer & Andrew Meidecke/ Jorge Van Ommen under the patronage of Bob Jane & raced with cigarette sponsorship (Martins?).

By 1987 Lyndon Reithmuller was running them under his Sephco Waste banner co- driven & prepared by Phil Ward. Only one car ran in 1987.

Ward acquired the cars & ran one in 1988 & again in 1990.

Unsure of the days of 2 litre racing in Australia.

In 1994 Ward acquired a Zakspeed Evolution 2, 2.5 ex DTM - reputed to still own this car.

Last time I saw mention of the earlier cars they were still together & for sale in the US.
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Old 31 May 2008, 09:58 (Ref:2215814)   #15
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The Marko/Jane cars were for sale in the States?? How on earth did they end up there?
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Old 1 Jun 2008, 03:43 (Ref:2216254)   #16
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Ward converted them to 2 Litre Supertouring trim for 1994, and were sold off for use in the North American Supertouring series in 1995/6.
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Old 1 Jun 2008, 09:58 (Ref:2216429)   #17
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Ward converted them to 2 Litre Supertouring trim for 1994, and were sold off for use in the North American Supertouring series in 1995/6.

One car appeared at the first NATCC round at Lime Rock Park in May 2006 under entered under the 'Ecurie Atlanta' name, driven by none other than Martin Stretton- always been curious how he came to get involved, although he was still appearing occasionally in modern GTs in the late 90's as well as his involvement in historics. He finished 6th in race 1, crashed in race 2 and the team wasn't seen again AFAIK. Presumably the money ran out- certainly from the pic I've seen there didn't seem to be much sponsorship in evidence on the car.

According to the NATCC yearbook (published by Haymarket/Autosport) in the same format as the UK 'Touring Car Year' annuals of the period:

'Two Mercedes 190E Super Tourers were imported from Australia by this team founded by Rodney Butterfield, a veteran engineer with a background in F1 with McLaren, March, Shadow and Surtees, before establishing a race preparation and restoration business and later moving to the USA. The team lasted just one race, British historic racing star Martin Stretton crashing the car at the opening meeting. The team was not seen again'

There's only one small pic of the car, showing a livery of white over red, split diagonally with red and grey striping, and prominent 'Ecurie Atlanta' lettering across the doors between the red lower part and an upper red and grey stripe from the front wing across the windows to the c-pillar
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Old 1 Jun 2008, 10:01 (Ref:2216434)   #18
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martin did indeed own the ex andy rouse dtm merc 190 evo2 but has since sold it on .what a car i drove it around donnington it was the fastest thing there ,around the corners it was awsome and on the back straight in 6th it was just mad at 11,000 rpm.
Do you know the history of the car? The livery on it in the recent pic suggests an ex-MS car from 1992, but is it the ex-Jorg van Ommen or Jacques Laffite chassis?
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Old 1 Jun 2008, 10:38 (Ref:2216488)   #19
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From memory, the Snobeck prepared cars were the most competitive 190's in ETC in both 85 and 86? Danny and Alain got their car up amongst the Rovers, Volvos and Sierras on a few occassions in 1986.
But as has been said the M3's arrival took the wind out of Merc's sails a bit, although i'm sure that if they had wanted to take BMW on in Europe as they latterly did in DTM they could've tweaked it a bit. i guess marketing led them to concentrate on the home series.
Still Stuttgart must've been pretty impressed with the French squad to hand them a prep deal for DTM in the late 80's early 90's!
Shame we never got to see a privateer version in BTCC in mid 80's, a well run and driven car could quite easily have won the title outright.
I wonder what might have happened if the ETCC had carried on after 1988, bearing in mind the development work Merc did on the car for the DTM. I guess their growing involvement in the Sauber Group C programme took precedence in term.s of international racing involvement, although I'd have thought an uprated 190 could have sold a fair few customer cars.

Snobeck were always a good outfit- they went on to run Opel's French Supertouring programmes in the 90's didnt they?

Yes, a well-run Merc in the hands of a good driver could have made hay in Class B in 1985/6- going on the comparitive form in Europe it would have murdered the Alfas, although Graham Goode's Bluebird and the Richard Longman RS Turbo might have been stiffer opposition, as they could both get amongst the big cars on occasion- neither had a great record for reliability though...

I remember Longman taking the Escort to the 85 TT and putting it inside the top 10 in qualifying, and splitting the Linder BMW 325s at the front of the class, outqualifying all the Mercs in '86, although Snobeck were absent on both occasions. The 325 is another car that would have been a certain class winner in the BTCC if anyone had ever brought one over. The class B battles in 85/6 could have been truly spectacular with a good Merc and 325 in the mix, although the arrival of the Prodrive/Sytner M3 would have put paid to that in mid-87...

The only Merc BTCC appearances I can think of were from the prodsaloon cars of Martin Carroll and Roger Eccles- Eccles' silver Swinford Motors car even did the TT in '86.
Was there ever any suggestion of one of them stepping up to the BTCC? I was looking through some old Autosports a couple of months back, and I thought I saw a mention of one of them (Carroll?) possibly upgrading his car to Group A...

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Old 2 Jun 2008, 07:45 (Ref:2217534)   #20
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does anyone have access to chassi numbers for the cars?
ive been sitting on my hands to buy a 1987 ish Gp A MB190e (not sure if 2 or 2.3 litre car)
reason why i did not buy it is
1 where to race it
2 it is a heavy car and likely to be uncompetitive ina free for all Gp a race series- the car may have been ok in say 87 but 88 the M3 came along and kicked ass and if yr going to buy over 2 litre car its gotta be a Bimmer
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Old 2 Jun 2008, 08:41 (Ref:2217586)   #21
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If it's a pukka 1987 Group A race car then it will have a 2.3 engine (Cosworth built the first ones didn't they?)

The 2.5 first raced in 1989 IIRC in the DTM followed by the Evo Batmobiles 1 and 2 in 1990 onwards.

There was never a 'proper' 2-litre race car, only those that were later converted unsuccessfully for the Class 2 Super Touring series in Australia as Bill Dale Jnr kindly mentioned.
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Old 2 Jun 2008, 10:51 (Ref:2217702)   #22
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OK it must be a 2.3 motor in the car
i sat in the car and it didnt feel like a "race " car more like a go faster taxi where the M3 and RS500 felt like race cars
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Old 2 Jun 2008, 14:17 (Ref:2217838)   #23
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OK it must be a 2.3 motor in the car
i sat in the car and it didnt feel like a "race " car more like a go faster taxi where the M3 and RS500 felt like race cars
Any idea of the history of the car you looked at?
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Old 2 Jun 2008, 16:39 (Ref:2217937)   #24
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no it was allegedly from germany and went to japan but i have no german names or livery to work off
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Old 2 Jun 2008, 17:07 (Ref:2217962)   #25
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I didnt think the Miller/McKay 1994 car was the whizzbang DTM chassis... but this article from Mr Miller's site seems to suggest the DTM car was sold into Asia
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