Sean Edwards Coronial Inquest

[team drinkalot]

The gravel trap surely was in need of maintenance. How could a fire truck drive over a well maintained gravel trap.

Even a flat bottomed, low race car could have had even 10kph washed off - might have saved a life.

[Just Do It!]

When cars go on the circuit, why arent gravel trap ridges moulded at 90 degrees to the race direction? At least this way, the cars would be hitting mounds or ridges of gravel.

[gts300]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

When cars go on the circuit, why arent gravel trap ridges moulded at 90 degrees to the race direction? At least this way, the cars would be hitting mounds or ridges of gravel.

Have seen cars surf across the ridges with no retardation. Again, a flat bottomed rear engine car (not a Porsche) just got on top the ridges and slid across.

Now, if the ridges were more than half vehicle length apart there may be some chance of ploughing with the leading edge.

[spook]

And the gravel trap did reduce the speed by more than 10km/h according to the Motec Data, they just started off way faster than the trap was designed for......

So you are saying every track needs a Fire Truck for testing of the gravel trap for use by racing cars ?.

The FIA/CAMS provides no guidelines whatsoever to the tracks on how to maintain gravel traps - every track does it with different equipment at different intervals in different ways.

The FIA standard is quite prescriptive on location, size, depth & material, but offers nothing on maintenance. The heavy equipment used to rake the traps, increases the compaction - the more you rake, the more you compact. If you use a lighter machine, it can't rake to the depth required - it not an easy problem to fix.

I recall when QR first opened, the gravel traps were difficult to walk over, and became less difficult over the years - but maybe I "learnt" to walk on them ?.

To sum up, there is no test a track operator can use that will indicate whether his maintenance is delivering the desired outcome, because no clear standard exists.

So should each track develop it's own standard test ?.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

When cars go on the circuit, why arent gravel trap ridges moulded at 90 degrees to the race direction? At least this way, the cars would be hitting mounds or ridges of gravel.

Different requirements for bikes and cars, I believe.

Would be very impractical on a weekend where both are on the program.

[team drinkalot]

[QUOTE=spook;I recall when QR first opened, the gravel traps were difficult to walk over, and became less difficult over the years - but maybe I "learnt" to walk on them ?.QUOTE]

So, with your best guess, how much more speed would have been washed off if this accident happened when QR first opened?

I wasn't saying that the Porsche had not slowed down at all, but it could have slowed down "more".

[spook]

It may have made a difference, it may not ?. I simply don't know, and I don't guess in areas of track safety.

Opinions in engineering mean nothing - you have to have a measurable standard, and a test that will tell you if the gravel trap preparation has achieved the desired outcome of maximum speed reduction across all users in all incidents (brakes or no brakes).

If YOU became a track operator tomorrow, when would you know when your gravel traps needed preparation ? - a visual inspection ? - a "walking drunk" test - someone's personal opinion ?, and what machinery would you use to ensure it was done quickly & effectively and not compact the traps over time ?. Can you see my point here ?, surely we can do better than the current situation ?.

I have some ideas about how a weekly/daily test of a gravel trap may work, but again without an accepted standard to meet (developed through proper testing), my idea is pointless.

[team drinkalot]

Originally Posted by spook

It may have made a difference, it may not ?. I simply don't know, and I don't guess in areas of track safety.

Opinions in engineering mean nothing - you have to have a measurable standard, and a test that will tell you if the gravel trap preparation has achieved the desired outcome of maximum speed reduction across all users in all incidents (brakes or no brakes).

If YOU became a track operator tomorrow, when would you know when your gravel traps needed preparation ? - a visual inspection ? - a "walking drunk" test - someone's personal opinion ?, and what machinery would you use to ensure it was done quickly & effectively and not compact the traps over time ?. Can you see my point here ?, surely we can do better than the current situation ?.

I have some ideas about how a weekly/daily test of a gravel trap may work, but again without an accepted standard to meet (developed through proper testing), my idea is pointless.

Golf Course Greenkeeper's deal with this every day of the week. Can't be that hard.

[Woolley]

The thing is, from years of marshalling, I've seen very similar cars hit the same piece of gravel at marginally different angles and one will stop in a few feet and the other will hit the wall at what seems fairly unreduced pace. Saloons, sports cars, prototypes, formula cars... It's highly unpredictable - I'm sure there's plenty of science goes into it - but on the whole the best you can say is a gravel trap will help in some circumstances.

The modern way at a lot of circuits is to do away with gravel altogether and have extended tarmac. Again, helps sometimes, doesn't help others (such as no brakes).

Or you just go to a street circuit and have no run off at all.

The report doesn't really seem to suggest that this was anything more than a really unfortunate, tragic accident, but that further research might help in the future.

[rich07]

Was Sean Edwards the first fatal at QR in its history?

[spook]

Motorsport Memorial records a motorcycle fatality in 2004 at Turn 4, There was also another fatal motorcycle accident in June 2013 at Turn 5, and Sean Edwards was the first fatality in a car at Turn 6 in 2013.

The motorcycle fatalities were as a result of collisions between bikes on the racing surface. Sean was the first fatality that involved an impact with the first line of protection.

The circuit opened in 1999.

[PVDA]

There was two very spectacular incidents involving Mini's a few years ago at Turn 6 from memory.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by spook

Motorsport Memorial records a motorcycle fatality in 2004 at Turn 4, There was also another fatal motorcycle accident in June 2013 at Turn 5, and Sean Edwards was the first fatality in a car at Turn 6 in 2013.



The motorcycle fatalities were as a result of collisions between bikes on the racing surface. Sean was the first fatality that involved an impact with the first line of protection.



The circuit opened in 1999.

Cheers. May they RIP.

I vaguely remember the Mini incidents. Was pretty crazy from memory

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

When cars go on the circuit, why arent gravel trap ridges moulded at 90 degrees to the race direction? At least this way, the cars would be hitting mounds or ridges of gravel.

The ridges should be in as close to parallel as possible to the direction in which the car is travelling, this way the car tramlines on the ridges and falls into the furrows digging all possible bits into the gravel, the suspension arms are forced to cut through the length of the ridges, this force is usually not even and turns the car further slowing its progress, there is also nothing (very little anyway) to launch off.

However once you are in the trap you will need to be recovered, which is inconvenient for the great TV god.

Umai Naa is correct that the ridges and furrows are very bad news for motorcycles.

As far as testing the pits out, it would be easy to stipulate that a 25mm diameter rod with a suitable weight dropped from a given height should be penetrate any portion of the pit to a depth of say 250mm. Could use a weight on a rod like a slide hammer.

[JABWOA]

Originally Posted by wnut

However once you are in the trap you will need to be recovered, which is inconvenient for the great TV god.

Good point but not just a tv issue either - non televised events will still need to run a tight schedule and excess time lost in vehicle extraction will mean less tracktime for others.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by wnut

......
However once you are in the trap you will need to be recovered, which is inconvenient for the great TV god.
.........

this is Oz we're talking about, not some hide-bound uber-H&S place like the UK ;-)
Have you watched the last 10 minutes of the 2015 Bathurst 12 hours? Now that's how to do recovery from gravel, I take my hat off to them.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by rich07

I vaguely remember the Mini incidents. Was pretty crazy from memory

https://youtu.be/vgcHjhm51JA

https://youtu.be/0jb0PWLE8mw

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by PVDA

https://youtu.be/vgcHjhm51JA

https://youtu.be/0jb0PWLE8mw

The second crash, has a many similarities with the Porsche crash. Gravel trap failing to slow car, inadequate two layer tyre barrier in front of armco fence.

[team drinkalot]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

The second crash, has a many similarities with the Porsche crash. Gravel trap failing to slow car, inadequate two layer tyre barrier in front of armco fence.

The gravel trap does not extend around the corner. That mini slid across the grass into the tyres.

[Mixer]

Definitely sounds to me like the front brakes should have been replaced prior to the race meeting.

But in the same breath you'd expect the pedal to have been long and one of the drivers perhaps would have said so.

Definitely a horrible outcome for all concerned.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by spook

Motorsport Memorial records a motorcycle fatality in 2004 at Turn 4, There was also another fatal motorcycle accident in June 2013 at Turn 5, and Sean Edwards was the first fatality in a car at Turn 6 in 2013.

The 2004 motorcycle fatality was former World Superbike & World 500cc rider and 1995 Australian Superbike Champion, Kirk McCarthy

[Langers]

Originally Posted by PVDA

https://youtu.be/vgcHjhm51JA

https://youtu.be/0jb0PWLE8mw

Second one is a sickening hit on the driver's side. Worries me far more than the first (other than the crowd intrusion - but that's a risk you take as a spectator).

[Langers]

Woops passenger side, but still a big hit.