The Future of V8SC

[Compromised]

With Gen2 seemingly perpetually delayed, strong talk of Volvo walking, Nissan giving yet another "deadline" on their future, Lexus saying no, BMW going GT, Audi going GT and the pseudo-mercs gone, could it be that in 2017 the series will only be populated by Holden's and fords once more?

Is a 2 make series where neither car is produced anymore really viable?

What do you see in the near and not so near future for our premier race class?

[peckstar]

IS this not the same as the audi says change thread, why restart the discussion?

[mayhem]

They'll be fine, that PayTV deal has sorted all the problems the series faces...

Only the greatest of optimists wouldn't think that the V8s are in all sorts of scheissen, some of it may be salvageable, other bits probably wont be.

IMO they need to forget Gen 2 and turbos etc
They need the cars to be solely V8 powered (use NASCAR as inspiration)
They need to reinvent COTF (keep Mark Skaife a million miles from the project) and allow 2 door coupes
They need to keep build costs to below $200k per vehicle (easier said than done probably)
They need to be able to operate without ANY manufacturer involvement if need be(easier said than done probably)
They need to win back the large faction of fans burnt by the PAY TV deal (easier said than done probably)
They need genuine rivalry, maybe get a driver to sleep with another drivers wife (OK that's probably going a bit far)
They need cars that belch flames and make no apologies for it
They need to look at EVERY facet that made them so popular and revert back to them (easier said than done probably)

Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I'll never know because they wont do any of this.

[Langers]

The racing product of V8SC is the best touring car product in the world (faux safety cars aside). No traction control, ABS or paddle shifting, low downforce, RWD and the cars are under-tyred. You can really see the drivers working hard and the cars on the limit. DTM, WTCC, TCR - none of these come close (nor does GT3).

I sincerely hope they do manage to keep the DNA of the formula in the face of what is an extremely challenging market environment.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by Langers

The racing product of V8SC is the best touring car product in the world (faux safety cars aside). No traction control, ABS or paddle shifting, low downforce, RWD and the cars are under-tyred. You can really see the drivers working hard and the cars on the limit. DTM, WTCC, TCR - none of these come close (nor does GT3).

I sincerely hope they do manage to keep the DNA of the formula in the face of what is an extremely challenging market environment.

Totally agree. It seems like the racing landscape has changed around V8SC, Gen2 being their "forced" evolution to try and stay relevant.

Id say manufacturers will have the final say in Supercars future

[velly4]

When they introduced coft they shot themselves in the foot by making everyone run a 5l V8. If they had of let Nissan, Mercedes and co run any configuration V8 and use restrictors to control power differences we might have a different horizon.
Sadly it seems with gen2 they are going down the same path of to many restrictions. With a v6 turbo is must be less than 3.75l, must use specified turbo, intercoolers etc etc. Straight away that rules Nissan bolting the GTR engine in without starting from almost scratch again.

[mayhem]

Fogarty (somewhat) upbeat about Gen 2

One thing I don't get: V8 Supercars has never been a hi-tech/developmental category, so why the need to conform with the rest of the world and run 4's and 6's and turbos? Just run V8's, (the engine configuration that got you to this point) and make no apologies for doing it!

[Samwhk]

Originally Posted by velly4

When they introduced coft they shot themselves in the foot by making everyone run a 5l V8. If they had of let Nissan, Mercedes and co run any configuration V8 and use restrictors to control power differences we might have a different horizon.
Sadly it seems with gen2 they are going down the same path of to many restrictions. With a v6 turbo is must be less than 3.75l, must use specified turbo, intercoolers etc etc. Straight away that rules Nissan bolting the GTR engine in without starting from almost scratch again.

Not saying you're wrong, but where have they stated any of the new engine rules for Gen2?

[RedZedMikey]

Whatever happens with V8SC / Gen 2 / Supercars, I have to disagree with those comments from the public calling for GT3 to be adopted. Every Speedcafe, V8SC or other internet article seems to have these comments saying go GT3.

GT3 is a different animal altogether to V8SC. Most, if not all, series are limited to less than 10 rounds in a championship, and given the way the existing cars are built and repaired, unless teams stump up for multi spare chassis, a 16 round series (inc AGP) with some rounds 2 weeks apart would spell trouble for teams that copped reasonable damage at a round.

We already have a GT3 series that encompasses races in Oz and NZ, and I don't see the need to or benefit in duplicating that. Although Aust GT has a completely different model for its series format, with Pro and Am drivers, no 'manufacturer' teams, and no financially induced obligation to appear at each and every round, surely introducing an all-pro "GT3SC" or whatever is the wrong answer.

If GT3 was the right answer, what will happen with race meeting attendances? I love GT3 racing, and attend as many races as I can, locally, and overseas when enough bucks are saved. But the crowds are not as big as V8SC (suits me as an amateur photog!) Would having the current crop of V8SC drivers plonked into GT3 cars really attract V8SC level crowds??? Do people support the cars, the teams, the drivers, or the racing?

Given the imminent demise of local manufacturing, and the replacements for the Falcon and Commodore likely to be completely different vehicles (think Altima, Camry types), something will have to be done. Holden will still be flogging Commodores well into 2017, so delaying Gen 2 to 2018 seems a sensible step.

So if I think GT3 is the wrong answer, what do I think is right? Personally, I would love to see the V8 stay as the prime power source, but have no real objection to allowing turbo 4s or 6s. What I would not like is the current parity system of enforcing a single capacity for each engine type. Much rather see a GT3 style BoP system allowing many engine formats and capacities. 2 door coupes - sure, let them in - but ensure they are based on genuine 4/5 seater vehicles such as the Mustang, Camaro, GT-R, Audi A5, etc. No mid or rear engine vehicles, no AWD.

I think a series using the MARC car concept would have great value, with cars built and repairable in Oz. Businesses such as 888, Prodrive, TPDJR, BJR would surely be able to construct such vehicles that need not have the constrictions applied by COTF/Gen 2, and MARC could be a supplier to smaller teams. No need to have the Coyote motor as the only power source, GM LS series engines, Dodge hemis and other V8 or turbo 4/6 engines could be adopted. Hell, even allow the current V8SC Ford/GM engines to still be used. I think this sort of vehicle has the potential to offer a faster, noisier, better spectacle than another considered option - Production Car type motorsport.

Just my thoughts as a motorsport fan that loves GT3 and likes V8SC (though it could be better).

[Umai Naa]

The Marc cars are designed and built by Pace Innovations, who coincidentally designed the control CotF chassis, and builds them for a few teams to various stages.

The idea of V8SC going to GT3 would mean that they would assume (read: purchase) the rights to promote and administrate those regulations in Australia and New Zealand of Tony Quinn. So in essence, they would be replacing the current V8SC cars with GT3 cars. Everything else would remain fairly similar.

We already know that GT3 in Australia can produce good racing, even with it's handicapped pitstops and Pro-Am driver combos. They are gaining in popularity, year on year. While the noises and appearances of the cars would be different, it's difficult to suggest that punters would be worse off.

[Accident]

I'm in the same boat as a GT racing fan, I'm not really seeing GT3 as the answer, and I sorta feel that the suggestions to go down that route are sort of knee-jerk reactions to people noticing the class is strong from the growth of the Bathurst 12 hour race. That being said I don't really think it would be a death sentence for the series either, but it would be a death sentence to the only interesting touring cars left in the world.

I don't think it would see much of a change in attendance for the first year though. Sure, some fans might not show up, but on the other side it might gain some new fans who find Lamborghinis and GT-Rs more appealing than sedans. Attendance for the years following would probably depend on how well the package "worked."

Personally, I'd like to see the series evolve into a coupe series, but keep its cars right where they are in terms of the way they perform and move and such. There has always been strong competition in the sporty coupe segment, and a few manufacturers are somewhat fresh into the mix and might be looking for a way to promote their new model.

Keep the DNA of the cars pretty similar to what it is now. Find a way to stop any aero-creep (limit how far off the back of the car the wing can hang, etc), keep them under-tired, no TCS/ABS, so on. Open it up for turbo 4s and such, and use BoP on the engine side of things. Maybe look at production-based engines if it can be done while keeping costs down. Keep the cars limited to 4/5 seat front-engined coupes as mentioned above. No AWD, but allow conversion to RWD. Keep trying to lower costs (in reasonable ways), and if engine power needs to be reduced a bit to go down the production-based path then just reduce aero a bit and tires to go with it.

There is a good selection of cars that would be possible:
Chevy Camaro (badged as a Holden?)
Ford Mustang
Dodge Challenger
Cadillac ATS-V
Audi 5-series
BMW 4-series
Mercedes C-class
Infiniti G60
Nissan GT-R (maybe) or Altima coupe
Lexus RC

In a dream world it would be nice to have the series pair up with another one, like the old EuroV8 series before it died, so there is a bigger market for the cars and so on, and they could promote it as their international class like they seem to sort of want to do.

[leothedrummer]

Technical regulations are only one part of the equation and not even the most important. The sporting regs and general objective of the series are far more critical than the chosen formula.

I think V8 Supercars is great as it is, but can still see plenty of room for improvement. GT3 is a great place to take influence from, but not the magical answer that some are making out to be. I'm actually against a straight adoption or even adaptation of GT3 regs as a V8SC replacement, there are better places to look and the best of those, IMO, is Super GT.

A tyre war, multi class racing and longer races have reliably shown that they increase entertainment and competition without any 'gimmicky' elements. Add in an aggressive BOP system and success ballast as desired for greater effect if needed and you've got a recipe for an exciting and engaging category, regardless of the cars that are running. There's a reason why DTM and GT500 are generally quite opposite to each other despite essentially running the same technical rules.

If I had my way, I'd entice new manufacturers with a more relaxed and open entry criteria and captivate fans with these new cars being faster and more enthralling than the existing ones. More power (why aren't Holden and Ford running NASCAR motors already? Serious question), bigger & softer rubber (hello tyre war) and increased aero (at a balanced level to maintain mechanical grip as the leading handling factor) with costs contained and performance manged through an aggressive parity stance.

A second class would then be opened up to encourage smaller, lower budget / non manufacturer supported teams to compete and increase grid sizes to captivate fans. This could even be done using the existing COTF and previous gen V8SC's, performance balanced together to allow Dunlop teams to compete if they wish, with the possibility of different machinery being allowed entry with appropriate balancing (MARC V8's?). BOP + success ballast as required, tyre war if possible and see what happens.

Single driver, single 250km races each round, with the two-driver enduro races remaining as they are.

The bigger grids and multi-class format is a throwback to the days of the ATCC, the faster machinery and multiclass action will capture eyeballs and entertain fans and the more accessible entry position will appeal to prospective new manufacturers.

But through my years, I've learnt that you don't always get your way.

Thoughts?

[Compromised]

One question Supercars has to answer - how keen are you on manufacturer involvement? If it's top priority then perhaps having a one off racing series isn't the solution. Like said above, Super GT/DTM regs would make more sense, manufacturers are already involved and the more people under the same regs, the cheaper.

But, if you want cars that are interesting to watch and good racing, you can't really go wrong with the current cars. Shame that the desire for manufacturer involvement might necessitate the need to move on to more practical regs

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by RedZedMikey

So if I think GT3 is the wrong answer, what do I think is right? Personally, I would love to see the V8 stay as the prime power source, but have no real objection to allowing turbo 4s or 6s. What I would not like is the current parity system of enforcing a single capacity for each engine type. Much rather see a GT3 style BoP system allowing many engine formats and capacities. 2 door coupes - sure, let them in - but ensure they are based on genuine 4/5 seater vehicles such as the Mustang, Camaro, GT-R, Audi A5, etc. No mid or rear engine vehicles, no AWD.

If it was down to me, you've got the job. I'd vote for that.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Woolley

If it was down to me, you've got the job. I'd vote for that.

+1

[Alan52]

Can anyone point to a professional touring car or GT type sports car series that has been successfully commercially without manufacturer support?I am talking about anywhere in the world in the last 50 years.
Can't think of one myself which points out the futility of V8SA trying to go it alone on regs without this type of support.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Can anyone point to a professional touring car or GT type sports car series that has been successfully commercially without manufacturer support?I am talking about anywhere in the world in the last 50 years.
Can't think of one myself which points out the futility of V8SA trying to go it alone on regs without this type of support.

Can I suggest some reading on the history of NASCAR?

The heartache V8 Supercars is suffering is similar to what NASCAR has endured at different times.

Certainly Bill France Sr recognised the necessity of ensuring the commercial structure underpinning the series can sufficiently support the series without automotive manufacturer support.

[Gaz170]

People will watch where the best drivers are, they will go where the best teams are. I don't think GT3 is the answer, but we should be looking at other overseas championships to see if there can be any common ground.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Gaz170

People will watch where the best drivers are, they will go where the best teams are. I don't think GT3 is the answer, but we should be looking at other overseas championships to see if there can be any common ground.

Every country has their own take on touring car racing and always has had. Open wheelers are always trying to conform to international regs to provide a path into European open wheeler racing and F1.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Should we consider the Group A model of a sliding scale of minimum weight and maximum rim width, determined by engine size?

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

Should we consider the Group A model of a sliding scale of minimum weight and maximum rim width, determined by engine size?

Without BoPing the crap out of it, how is that gonna work? Most of the cars in use in the series right now are front wheel drive, which is a natural disadvantage on a race track.

[BrentJackson]

This is admittedly coming from a guy who is approximately 14000 km from Australia but who has been following (and having an absolute ball watching) V8 Supercar races since the late 1990s, so for what its worth, I will pop in.

The current model has no future, as the cost involved is too high for privateer interests and the manufacturers are increasingly asking whether the cost is worth it, particularly since Australia's domestic auto industry is (for now, IMO) in its last days. It's not gonna be easy to justify the sorts of costs that V8SC has traditionally charged with the Commodore and Falcon gone, the cars being bought by Aussies being far smaller (not an uncommon theme worldwide) and with emissions and fuel economy concerns making in most places V8s increasingly less common in cars. None of these factors can be changed by the series, and they have to live with it. The multiple holdoffs of the Gen 2 rules show the dilemna the series has to live with it - many of what one would call "traditional" fans IMO will find it rather difficult to relate to a Mustang as opposed to a Falcon, and Holden isn't likely to start selling the Camaro or Cadillac ATS-V just to get a car to promote in V8SC.

IMO, the best way I can see working is to create something new, but with sedans. The idea of allowing turbocharged V6 and inline-4 engines IMO isn't the best of calls, because while it will make the manufacturers happy the fans will absolutely hate it - I'd say the best bet for this is to have a requirement for production-based engines with a minimum of six cylinders, allowing forced induction on engines smaller than 3800cc, with an outright displacement limit of 6000cc. The cars should be similar in chassis design to the current ones, though on smaller platforms - replace the Commodore and Falcon with the Mondeo and Insignia, Volvo retains the S60 and Nissan retains the Altima if they wish to go this route. Other makers of sedan cars should be encouraged this way - Mazda 6, Peugeot 508 and Honda Accord models should be encouraged. The cars should move up some in horsepower-aim for 680-700 horsepower. Allow anti-lock braking and seven-speed sequential gearboxes, but with the shifting always being done from a floor-mounted shift, and with minimum weight kept at 1400 kg. The series-control V8 engine option would remain for those automakers who don't have a suitable production engine, such as Volvo or Mazda. The cars would still retain many of the stylistic elements of the current cars.

The absolutely critical thing for the sedans is to keep the costs of building and racing these things down - let it get too far up and you won't get it back, and there is no other race series that will have anything like this and likely there never will be, so the costs of involvement have to be worked on accordingly. As a result of this, the series would allow anybody to make a car if they wish to, without requiring a manufacturer commitment.

The curveball on this is that the series would also allow the GT3 cars, but in a separate class. The GT3 cars would have their own class, but both would be equalized to the best possible degree to allow both to compete for overall race wins. Makers would only be allowed to choose one platform for a series car of choice (a problem I can only see Nissan having), so you don't get duplication. As the cost of making the sedan racers would be brought down to about A$300,000 under the new rules, teams would have the option of building a sedan racer and developing it or buying a GT3 car turn-key, though a manufacturer may make the call for you. (The GT3 car is more expensive up-front and could be more expensive in the event of an accident, but you don't have the cost of development.) The overall idea is that the GT3 cars would be quicker in the corners while the V8SCs would be faster in a straight line, with the two as close to equal on the brakes as possible.

Tires would have limits for the number of that can be used in a weekend, but no limits on who can supply them, provided that they are sold at a spec price and that they are available to any and all teams at any time. The Racing Entitlement Contract system should be shelved and the field to open to all who wish to race in it, though those who paid for the RECs should be paid back for them. The series would use an aggressive BoP and penalty weight to keep the field close.

At all events, the two classes of cars would race for overall positions as well as in its two categories - at Sandown or Queensland or Pukekohe or Adelaide the V8s would have the edge due to straight-line speed (Bathurst probably too, but the GT3 lap record is six seconds a lap faster for the GT3 cars, though much of that was probably Van Gisbergen at the controls on that lap record), whereas at Melbourne or Phillip Island or Surfers Paradise or Kuala Lumpur or Winton the better handling of the GT3s would probably come out ahead.

The idea is that the best driver overall is the champ, regardless of his or her choice of chariot. The use of anti-lock brakes is to give drivers the confidence to really shove on them to get better action, and the whole idea is that the smaller, better-handling GT3s would do battle with the heavyweight four-door racers.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Without BoPing the crap out of it, how is that gonna work? Most of the cars in use in the series right now are front wheel drive, which is a natural disadvantage on a race track.

Only the Altima is FWD as a roadcar.

The Falcon, Commodore and Merc are RWD.

The Volvo S60 Polestar is AWD.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by RedZedMikey

Whatever happens with V8SC / Gen 2 / Supercars, I have to disagree with those comments from the public calling for GT3 to be adopted. Every Speedcafe, V8SC or other internet article seems to have these comments saying go GT3.

GT3 is a different animal altogether to V8SC. Most, if not all, series are limited to less than 10 rounds in a championship, and given the way the existing cars are built and repaired, unless teams stump up for multi spare chassis, a 16 round series (inc AGP) with some rounds 2 weeks apart would spell trouble for teams that copped reasonable damage at a round.

We already have a GT3 series that encompasses races in Oz and NZ, and I don't see the need to or benefit in duplicating that. Although Aust GT has a completely different model for its series format, with Pro and Am drivers, no 'manufacturer' teams, and no financially induced obligation to appear at each and every round, surely introducing an all-pro "GT3SC" or whatever is the wrong answer.

If GT3 was the right answer, what will happen with race meeting attendances? I love GT3 racing, and attend as many races as I can, locally, and overseas when enough bucks are saved. But the crowds are not as big as V8SC (suits me as an amateur photog!) Would having the current crop of V8SC drivers plonked into GT3 cars really attract V8SC level crowds??? Do people support the cars, the teams, the drivers, or the racing?

Given the imminent demise of local manufacturing, and the replacements for the Falcon and Commodore likely to be completely different vehicles (think Altima, Camry types), something will have to be done. Holden will still be flogging Commodores well into 2017, so delaying Gen 2 to 2018 seems a sensible step.

So if I think GT3 is the wrong answer, what do I think is right? Personally, I would love to see the V8 stay as the prime power source, but have no real objection to allowing turbo 4s or 6s. What I would not like is the current parity system of enforcing a single capacity for each engine type. Much rather see a GT3 style BoP system allowing many engine formats and capacities. 2 door coupes - sure, let them in - but ensure they are based on genuine 4/5 seater vehicles such as the Mustang, Camaro, GT-R, Audi A5, etc. No mid or rear engine vehicles, no AWD.

I think a series using the MARC car concept would have great value, with cars built and repairable in Oz. Businesses such as 888, Prodrive, TPDJR, BJR would surely be able to construct such vehicles that need not have the constrictions applied by COTF/Gen 2, and MARC could be a supplier to smaller teams. No need to have the Coyote motor as the only power source, GM LS series engines, Dodge hemis and other V8 or turbo 4/6 engines could be adopted. Hell, even allow the current V8SC Ford/GM engines to still be used. I think this sort of vehicle has the potential to offer a faster, noisier, better spectacle than another considered option - Production Car type motorsport.

Just my thoughts as a motorsport fan that loves GT3 and likes V8SC (though it could be better).

GT3 racing is boring though.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by FAS33

GT3 racing is boring though.

What makes it boring to you?

How can they spice it up to enliven it for you?